Among other things. For those of us who do see a Caster-Martial disparity, the issue isn't sheer scaling of damage. A Fighter already can out-DPR a Wizard. The issue is that the Wizard can do a lot of different things, while the Fighter specializes in a few, even with all those feats. The Fighter just isn't good at tactical options outside of her specialty. I don't like that. I think the individual Fighter should be better at a larger variety of things, so that they have a bigger plethora of options. I think a useful move towards that may be for combat maneuvers not to provoke AOOs, so as to encourage martials to use them. This would mean that attempting to bull rush somebody or break a spear is practical without feat investments, which helps the less useful maneuvers get used in their niches while making more useful maneuvers practical from the get go so that martials can generally be assumed to know how to trip or bull rush. Though some maneuvers may have to be edited a bit so that being free doesn't make them OP (a concern I have with trip in particular). So let's have at it: good idea, not as useful as it sounds, or way too wonky?
I'd just wipe prereqs from Improved/Greater feats (besides the Improved feat for Greater). I usually want something giving me better odds to want to try combat maneuvers.
I've always thought that martials should have some sort of access to the special qualities monsters have that make maneuvers a rider on their successful attacks (such as the wolf's trip, or giant frog's grab). Having it on all attacks would be overwhelming, but having it on one attack per round would be cool.
You could test your idea as is though.
I'm a big fan of the house rule where combat maneuvers only provoke attacks of opportunity if they fail.
I use this too, even though I'm agreed with the OP that the AoO isn't really good for the game.
I do this because I hate altering statblocks for house rules. The AoO on a failed maneuver means there's something for the feat to do. A lot of statblocks are built with maneuver feats in mind, so this is the best compromise. The guy with improved bull rush still has something to show for it (and not an increased bonus that could push him over the top in terms of lethality).
I'll go even further and say that gameplay improves when maneuvers deal damage (a.k.a. "Brutal Maneuvers"). Push, trip, grapple, even steal -- these things when done in combat are generally not with a gentle touch. If your goal as GM is to correct the "stand and hack" feel of Pathfinder, this one change goes a long way toward dynamic combat.
Characters end up moving around a lot more during the fight, and every attack roll comes with a description.
Same as Headfirst, and once you get the feats, you don't provoke at all.
Another think you can do is "cluster" the maneuvers, those that need combat expertise, and those that need power attack in one general feat for each category.
How versatile a fighter is depends on the kind of fighter you create. You want all the maneuvers without AoO's? Use a reach weapon. To my mind the fighter doesn't lack versatility in that regard, he lacks it because of his built-in over-specialisation with a specific weapon, and the fact that if you aren't fighting, he hasn't many options.
Getting rid of the AoO often does nothing but good for the game.
Getting rid of the AoO often does nothing but good for the game.
Seconded.
I found that eliminating AoO for successful maneuvers but not for failures, also makes PCs unwilling to try them. I' currently in the process of reworking maneuvers as a whole, including the feats that boost them. Current idea is that Imp. Maneuver feats grant +2 bonus that scales by +1 per 4 BAB, and grants that a particular maneuver is made as a part of an attack (grapple is still under consideration but I'm probably gonna do that one separate to others maybe with opposed rolls mechanic).
.... Though some maneuvers may have to be edited a bit so that being free doesn't make them OP (a concern I have with trip in particular).
maybe limit it so that it's only usable with weapons that have the trip property (current trip property makes no sense at all, why is it easier to drop khopesh from your hand than a longsword? either trip should be only used with trip weapons or trip weapons should give a +2 bonus. leaning to second one myself.
Getting rid of the AoO often does nothing but good for the game.
Unless your character performance hinges on them, and quite a few do.
Getting rid of the AoO often does nothing but good for the game.Unless your character performance hinges on them, and quite a few do.
I believe Rynjin is specifically talking about the AoO from attempting a maneuver. AoO's from movement are fine, good even, since they're really the only half-decent method of area control the fighter has currently.
I believe Rynjin is specifically talking about the AoO from attempting a maneuver. AoO's from movement are fine, good even, since they're really the only half-decent method of area control the fighter has currently.Getting rid of the AoO often does nothing but good for the game.Unless your character performance hinges on them, and quite a few do.
Fair enough, though it devalues the feats I agree it makes players more likely to attempt them.
I'd want to change up the feats to make them more worthwhile for dedicated maneuver builds. Move the current Greater effects into the Improved feats, then for the Greater feat you can use the maneuver as a rider on your first iterative.
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How I deal with maneuvers:
1- If you don't have the feat, they only provoke AoO if you miss.
2- If you do have the feats, they don't provoke at all.
3- Combat Expertise and Int 13 are removed from all combat feat prerequisites. Improved <Maneuver> feats automatically scale to include the effects of the corresponding Greater <Maneuver> feats when you reach BAB +6.
(In fact, lots of feats scale automatically based on BAB, including TWF)
Gonna steal the houserule that AoO's only occur if the maneuver misses. I dig it.
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Combat maneuvers are one of the most powerful aspects of the game. I've seen how people who build for them become the most effective lockdown and kill options you can have especially at medium to high level.
They certainly do not need a boost of this magnitude.
Bahahahaha! That's a good one! *snort*
I'd want to change up the feats to make them more worthwhile for dedicated maneuver builds. Move the current Greater effects into the Improved feats, then for the Greater feat you can use the maneuver as a rider on your first iterative.
Er, you can do that with a lot of them anyway. Except for Bull Rush, Grapple and Overrun, most can be performed instead of any attack, using that attack's iterative BAB. So if you have three attacks a round you can try a trip attempt instead of any one or all of those attacks.
However, I would say that combat maneuvers should inflict damage as the attack form they are made with - if you use a sickle to trip with, it can and should do damage to get your leg snagged with a sharp blade...
Combat maneuvers are one of the most powerful aspects of the game. I've seen how people who build for them become the most effective lockdown and kill options you can have especially at medium to high level.
They certainly do not need a boost of this magnitude.
I honestly LOL'd reading this.
I'd want to change up the feats to make them more worthwhile for dedicated maneuver builds. Move the current Greater effects into the Improved feats, then for the Greater feat you can use the maneuver as a rider on your first iterative.Er, you can do that with a lot of them anyway. Except for Bull Rush, Grapple and Overrun, most can be performed instead of any attack, using that attack's iterative BAB. So if you have three attacks a round you can try a trip attempt instead of any one or all of those attacks.
However, I would say that combat maneuvers should inflict damage as the attack form they are made with - if you use a sickle to trip with, it can and should do damage to get your leg snagged with a sharp blade...
That's what I mean by rider; you don't do the maneuver instead of the attack, you do the maneuver in addition to the attack if the attack hits, like how a wolf can trip you after biting.
Also, to be fair to Lazar, he may be playing primarily Society where 90% of what you fight is medium-sized humanoids that are totally susceptible to being tripped.
Combat maneuvers are one of the most powerful aspects of the game. I've seen how people who build for them become the most effective lockdown and kill options you can have especially at medium to high level.
They certainly do not need a boost of this magnitude.
Bahahahaha! That's a good one! *snort*
Depends on the level and campaign. Sub 10th level, most maneuvers are pretty rad.
Also, if you're playing in a campaign with mostly Medium or Large Humanoids, then Trip becomes godly.
However, as creatures get bigger, and fly more, and have more legs, Trip becomes useless, and Grapple (and POSSIBLY Dirty Trick) become the only really viable ones.
Meanwhile, Disarm and Bull Rush are situationally useful, but not usually worth dropping a Feat into, Sunder is good for one build (Spell Sunder), and Reposition is 100% useless (it does nothing, near as I can tell, that Bull Rush does not do better).
Getting rid of the AoO on attempts lets those lesser used ones shine more, and doesn't devalue the overall better ones (Grapple, Trip, and maybe Dirty Trick) because all of those have Feats that make them better beyond the simple +2/4 and removing the AoO.
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I debated implementing a system of Guard that was essentially feat-based which relegated AoO potential to High Guard (provoke prior), Low Guard (provoke on failure), and No Guard (no provoke), in which characters started with No Guard, but could increase their own and lower their opponent's via the feats Defensive Combat Training (+2 own), having and using Combat Expertise (+1 own, -1 enemy), or having an individual Improved Maneuver feat (+1 own, -1 enemy vs that maneuver only).
ultimately I moslty abandoned the idea for complexity's sake, and instead just have maneuvers provoke on failure for everybody, with the maneuver feats removing provokal altogether, and CE and DCT having the added effects to their regular CRB functions:
(add)
Combat Expertise: While using this feat (taking the attack penalty), you do not provoke an AoO while performing a combat maneuver unless your opponent also possesses and is using this feat.
Defensive Combat Training: Performing a combat maneuver against you provokes an attack of opportunity from you beforehand, and your opponent takes a penalty to CMB equal to damage dealt with your attack.
...
cheers.