Noble Scion of War Combined with First into battle. Do they stack?

[jessegilbert]

Copied from my question on the Pathfinder Society Facebeook group, which I was unable to get a confident answer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Feat Noble Scion: Scion of War lets you use your charisma bonus in place of your dexterity bonus for initiative. This should stack with the Paladin Archetype: Sword of Valor, which at level 2 adds your Charisma Bonus to your initiative. These stack, right? As one changes your base Initiative and the other adds a bonus to the base initiative?

This is in the FAQ already:

"Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions."

I'm particularily focused on this sentence: "However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier."
I feel that this is what this combination is doing, and should be perfectly legal, thoughts?

[Calth]

No, they do not stack per that FAQ, it is clarified in the discussion thread for it. Replacing dex with cha is equivalent with having an untyped bonus from Cha.

[bigrig107]

I believe these will combine, as the wording of Sword of Valor is different. It doesn't say "change Dex to Cha" it says "gains a bonus equal to her Cha bonus".

They do.

[bigrig107]

Calth wrote:

No, they do not stack per that FAQ, it is clarified in the discussion thread for it. Replacing dex with cha is equivalent with having an untyped bonus from Cha.

Actually, no. They aren't equal. One is replacing the score, one is adding a bonus.

See the Infiltrator Inquisitor archetype plus the Conversion Inquisition. Same circumstances.

[Calth]

bigrig107 wrote:

I believe these will combine, as the wording of Sword of Valor is different. It doesn't say "change Dex to Cha" it says "gains a bonus equal to her Cha bonus".

They do.

Scion of War changes dex to cha. You know have Cha as an untyped bonus to your initiative. Sword of Valor then tries to add another instance of Cha as an untyped bonus to your initiative, which the FAQ forbids. These types of instances were explicitly disallowed by the devs in the discussion thread. No untyped double dipping of any sort.

[bigrig107]

Calth wrote:

bigrig107 wrote:

I believe these will combine, as the wording of Sword of Valor is different. It doesn't say "change Dex to Cha" it says "gains a bonus equal to her Cha bonus".

They do.

Scion of War changes dex to cha. You know have Cha as an untyped bonus to your initiative. Sword of Valor then tries to add another instance of Cha as an untyped bonus to your initiative, which the FAQ forbids. These types of instances were explicitly disallowed by the devs in the discussion thread. No untyped double dipping of any sort.

No. Scion of War doesn't add an "untyped bonus" to initiative. It literally changes the ability score.

Which then leads to Sword of Valor, which says "When the paladin makes an Initiative check, she gains a bonus to the check equal to her Charisma bonus."

That is an untyped bonus. You're right. But Scion of War isn't an "untyped bonus".

[kinevon]

bigrig107 wrote:

Calth wrote:

bigrig107 wrote:

I believe these will combine, as the wording of Sword of Valor is different. It doesn't say "change Dex to Cha" it says "gains a bonus equal to her Cha bonus".

They do.

Scion of War changes dex to cha. You know have Cha as an untyped bonus to your initiative. Sword of Valor then tries to add another instance of Cha as an untyped bonus to your initiative, which the FAQ forbids. These types of instances were explicitly disallowed by the devs in the discussion thread. No untyped double dipping of any sort.

No. Scion of War doesn't add an "untyped bonus" to initiative. It literally changes the ability score.

Which then leads to Sword of Valor, which says "When the paladin makes an Initiative check, she gains a bonus to the check equal to her Charisma bonus."

That is an untyped bonus. You're right. But Scion of War isn't an "untyped bonus".

Yes, it is. C.F. Agile Maneuvers.

[graystone]

Sadly Calth is right. They made up some new 'rules' to make them not stack. It seems logical that replace and add would be two different thinks but logic doesn't trump the 'rules'.

bigrig107, you should check out the thread they announced the FAQ in. It explains why it doesn't work like you think it does.

[Bob Bob Bob]

A "bonus on the check equal to their X bonus" (where X is an ability score) without a type before the bonus counts as adding that ability bonus. If you're adding it already (class ability, feat, whatever) then they don't stack. Here's the FAQ. The line from the FAQ that is exactly your example is

Quote:

For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.

[bigrig107]

Alright, sorry for being opinionated, but I can't believe that doesn't work.

I'll give a look into that FAQ.

[Calth]

bigrig107 wrote:

Calth wrote:

bigrig107 wrote:

I believe these will combine, as the wording of Sword of Valor is different. It doesn't say "change Dex to Cha" it says "gains a bonus equal to her Cha bonus".

They do.

Scion of War changes dex to cha. You know have Cha as an untyped bonus to your initiative. Sword of Valor then tries to add another instance of Cha as an untyped bonus to your initiative, which the FAQ forbids. These types of instances were explicitly disallowed by the devs in the discussion thread. No untyped double dipping of any sort.

No. Scion of War doesn't add an "untyped bonus" to initiative. It literally changes the ability score.

Which then leads to Sword of Valor, which says "When the paladin makes an Initiative check, she gains a bonus to the check equal to her Charisma bonus."

That is an untyped bonus. You're right. But Scion of War isn't an "untyped bonus".

The devs ruled that the base ability added to a roll counts as an untyped bonus of that ability. Melee attack rolls, the strength you add is an untyped bonus. Will save, wisdom is an untyped bonus. You can explicitly only add an ability score once to a roll unless it has a type.

In other words, each ability score is now functionally its own bonus type (Str type, Dex type) and they don't stack with themselves. Instead of wording it this way, they worded it as the FAQ, basically to avoid having to rewrite a bunch of rules on bonuses. Mark confirmed that this is functionally identical to the FAQ.