Do Juggler Bards need to make a concentration check when they take damage?

[ShroudedInLight]

Topic! I am working on a build and the Juggler Bard has been suggested as an option. I am trying it out in my head to see if it works.

I am wondering whether or not I would have to make a DC 10+Damage+4 check when juggling 2 objects if I take damage.

Here is the text:

D20 wrote:

If the juggler is affected by any action or condition that would require a concentration check while he is juggling, he must attempt a Sleight of Hand check to continue juggling and avoid losing concentration. The check's DC is the same as a concentration check, treating the spell level as twice the number of objects being juggled.

If the juggler fails his Sleight of Hand check, he drops all juggled objects but one, determined randomly.

[burkoJames]

The text certainly says you must make a concentration check to keep juggling when damaged. That's my read.

[ShroudedInLight]

That is what I thought, just wanted to double check.

Thanks!

The real question for me, now, is what kind of action it is to start/stop juggling. I would say a free action, but I would not allow my juggler to begin juggling or stop juggling during anyone else's turn.

[LoneKnave]

I thought they only need to make the sleigh of hand if they need to concentrate to cast spells defensively, etc. I mean, you don't usually need to make a concentration check when hit, and it doesn't say anywhere that you treat juggling as casting a spell.

However, doing so does make sense. It's a moot point, you'll reliably make the check (seriously, stop exchanging ability checks for skill checks, the math does NOT work).

[ShroudedInLight]

Reliably make the check?

20 damage pushes the DC to 34, I will have 12 points before Dex, Dex of 22 assumed:

34-18 = 16

20% Success rate at level 9

Juggling requires concentration, since you would always be juggling with multiple items that makes the check very hard. Of course if it is a free action to stop juggling (which would make sense) and a free action to start juggling (which would make sense) then since I only plan to juggle two items when it isn't my turn I can just catch them before I end my turn and then resume juggling on my next turn right before my attack, then stop after my attack, and repeat ^_^

Again, assuming that starting/stopping to juggle is a free action.

[Kazaan]

LoneKnave wrote:

I thought they only need to make the sleigh of hand if they need to concentrate to cast spells defensively, etc. I mean, you don't usually need to make a concentration check when hit, and it doesn't say anywhere that you treat juggling as casting a spell.

However, doing so does make sense. It's a moot point, you'll reliably make the check (seriously, stop exchanging ability checks for skill checks, the math does NOT work).

Casting defensively isn't even remotely the only condition that demands a concentration check. Taking damage during casting or from an AoO or other contingient action (ie. readied action) in response to casting triggers a concentration check which gets harder the more damage you took. Being pinned or grappled, experiencing harsh movement such as on a racing chariot, extreme weather, lots of things can prompt concentration checks. Reference.

[LoneKnave]

@ShroudedInLight: Add +3 for being trained, and 22DEX without magic items, so add those too (should be +4, but probably +6). You could also get a nice+4 enhancement bonus from some magical trinket to your Sleigh of Hand relatively easily on top of that. I'm also probably missing a bunch of spells bards could pull off, not to mention feats (though I understand that you probably don't want to spend feats on it).

So, maybe saying it's trivial is a bit much, but it's really not that difficult, especially compared to ability checks.

@Kazaan: that's what the etc. is for.

[Imbicatus]

Skill Focus (Slight of Hand) finally has a use.

[Kazaan]

LoneKnave wrote:

@ShroudedInLight: Add +3 for being trained, and 22DEX without magic items, so add those too (should be +4, but probably +6). You could also get a nice+4 enhancement bonus from some magical trinket to your Sleigh of Hand relatively easily on top of that. I'm also probably missing a bunch of spells bards could pull off, not to mention feats (though I understand that you probably don't want to spend feats on it).

So, maybe saying it's trivial is a bit much, but it's really not that difficult, especially compared to ability checks.

@Kazaan: that's what the etc. is for.

What you wrote didn't quite seem clear then. It seems, on reading it, that you're saying that taking damage doesn't prompt a concentration check.

[LoneKnave]

Re-reading it, I agree that it can seem that way. Apologies for the unclearness.

[Dave Justus]

My read on this is that juggling doesn't cause a concentration check. It simply adds an additional check (slight of hand) to other concentration checks to avoid dropping what is being juggled.

So, I am juggling a knife and a wand. I cast glitter dust spell. On my opponents turn he stabs me with his steely knife. Nothing here requires a concentration check, so I'm all good. Next turn, still juggling I cast a cure light wounds since that knife hurt. Unfortunately knife man's archer friend had a readied action to shoot me if I cast a spell, I get hit and now I have to make a concentration check to keep the spell and a slight of hand check to avoid dropping the knife or the wand (random).

[LoneKnave]

My initial reading was the same as Dave Justus's, but he spelled it out cleaner.

However, I'll note that this'd mean you can keep juggling unimpeded while grappling (I think), among other sillyness. So the interpretation by OP makes more sense from that perspective.

[ShroudedInLight]

At level 9 I have 9 points in sleight of hand, +6 from Dex, +3 from being trained. 9+9 is +18 to sleight of hand.

The DC is 10+4(objects being Juggledx2)+X(Damage Taken)

Assuming 20 damage is taken, 20+14 = 34

34-18= 16, 16 is the roll needed to remain concentrating*.
*Note: This is a relatively high level low gold campaign with maybe 8k total starting gold, maybe I'd be able to afford a +2 to dex reducing the roll to a 15

However, I am open to Dave Justus's interpretation as well and I wonder which is the intended version.

I would personally say that any action that occupies your hands would prevent you from continuing to juggle, such as being grappled. However, this is just a case of the wording in an archetype not being quite air-tight.

Any further interpretations would be helpful ^_^

[Kazaan]

Are you all reading the same passage I am? It's not something that only applies when you need to make an actual concentration check. It's something that applies at all times. So if you're in harsh weather, you make a SoH check. If you are injured, you make a SoH check. If you are struck while casting a spell, you make both a concentration check for the spell and a SoH check for the juggling. If you botch just the concentration check, you lose the spell but not the items. If you botch just the SoH check, you lose your items but not your spell. If you botch both, you lose both. Basically, it's saying that juggling requires concentration and anything that would break concentration for a spell applies to break concentration for your juggling and the SoH check is a stand-in for a concentration check.

[Black_Lantern]

Yes you need to make a concentration check; however, it seems silly to punish a player even more who's already gimping himself by choosing to juggle.

You might want to invest in a +5 sleight of hand item gloves that have storing or are treated like a bag of holding, just so you can access to your wands, scrolls, wine, juggling objects, etc.

[bbangerter]

Kazaan wrote:

Are you all reading the same passage I am? It's not something that only applies when you need to make an actual concentration check. It's something that applies at all times. So if you're in harsh weather, you make a SoH check. If you are injured, you make a SoH check. If you are struck while casting a spell, you make both a concentration check for the spell and a SoH check for the juggling. If you botch just the concentration check, you lose the spell but not the items. If you botch just the SoH check, you lose your items but not your spell. If you botch both, you lose both. Basically, it's saying that juggling requires concentration and anything that would break concentration for a spell applies to break concentration for your juggling and the SoH check is a stand-in for a concentration check.

^ This right here. Yes you must make a concentration check for juggling under the same conditions you'd have to make a concentration check when casting.