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Masterwork properties are included already. Why include masterwork into the price but not into the effect?
Adamantine and all the other materials state they're masterwork, but do not state that they give a +1 to hit or a -1 to armor penalty.
Mithral reduces ACP by -3.
Masterwork reduces ACP by -1.
Mithral has no rules indicating that it replaces, denies, or subsumes the effects of armor being masterwork.
I know what the general player base says. I have some friends that refuse to believe me, because the Rules do not SPECIFICALLY say it. The question is. Does Mithral give a total ACP of -4, or the written -3? Are the Masterwork properties included in Mithrals text, or do you add them in I'm looking to get someone Official and who can say so and no one can argue it, because they make the game.
This is their logic if you care to read it.
"[6:34:49 PM | Edited 6:35:50 PM] The Most Interesting Man in the World: Masterwork Armor
Just as with weapons, you can purchase or craft masterwork versions of armor or shields. Such a well-made item functions like the normal version, except that its armor check penalty is lessened by 1.
Firstly, including people's names without permission is dirty pool. Please consider editing your post to provide courtesy to his privacy.
Secondly, yes. The material qualities of mithral are expressed under their own heading. They do not say they include the modifiers for being masterwork, they only say that items made from this material are also masterwork in addition to the material itself.
Masterwork items and the effect of being masterwork is detailed separately and its own effect. If the mithral material said the modifiers include the masterwork adjustment, or did not stack with the masterwork adjustment, you would have ground to stand on.
However, it does neither. The two are two separate effects.
EDIT
Names changed to protect the correct.
In a similar vein, you'll notice that it does not include a thing saying that weapons made from mithral have a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and can be enhanced as magic weapons, it just lists the benefits of the material in question; because like with armor, those adjustments come from the masterwork quality and are a separate thing; mithral makes them masterwork which has its own separate effect.
Guys, the post was edited to give anonymity. Second unless you are an official coming in, nothing will be garnered or said that has not been already argued.
If you cannot accept anything but the opinion of a developer, hit the FAQ and wait a while, but given that you cannot reason an alternative, it seems pretty pointless.
You've already gotten your official ruling. Unless you're expecting a Paizo employee to take time off of their day to read your thread, which is frankly unreasonable. The book tells you everything you need to know.
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You've already gotten your official ruling. Unless you're expecting a Paizo employee to take time off of their day to read your thread, which is frankly unreasonable. The book tells you everything you need to know.
Seriously. It's not even ambiguous. :\
EDIT: Up next, "Does damage reduce current HP? Need dev feedback!"
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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official
Things you can find in Chapter 15 of the OFFICIAL Core Rulebook:
"Elven chain" is mithral chainmail with an ACP of -2.
"Mithral full plate of speed" is mithral full plate with an ACP of -3.
Those are 100% OFFICIAL facts, right there in black and white.
Now go do math.
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Damage
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal.
Damage reduces a target's current hit points.
Look an official in the book clear response.
Yeah. And right in the official book masterwork do what masterwork do.
Or are you now arguing that mithral swords don't give a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and cannot be made magical?
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Adamantine and all the other materials state they're masterwork, but do not state that they give a +1 to hit or a -1 to armor penalty.
EDIT: Perhaps Adamantine and other such materials incur a +1 ACP, countering the -1 from masterwork. (Oops I should have read it before assuming you were right about this ;) )
Either way, each special material tells you quite clearly what it does and they even went out of their way to include the cost of masterwork quality so why assume that the benefits of masterwork were not already included?
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"Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Adamantine
In case anyone was doubting that it doesn't state they get the +1 bonus or -1 ACP
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officialThings you can find in Chapter 15 of the OFFICIAL Core Rulebook:
"Elven chain" is mithral chainmail with an ACP of -2.
"Mithral full plate of speed" is mithral full plate with an ACP of -3.Those are 100% OFFICIAL facts, right there in black and white.
Now go do math.
Unfortunately, that's not a certainty, and this is why.
Ogre CR 3
XP 800
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init –1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +5
Defense
AC 17, touch 8, flat-footed 17 (+4 armor, –1 Dex, +5 natural, –1 size)
hp 30 (4d8+12)
Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +3
Offense
Speed 30 ft. (40 ft. base)
Melee greatclub +7 (2d8+7)
Ranged javelin +1 (1d8+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Statistics
Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +9; CMD 18
Feats Iron Will, Toughness
Skills Climb +7, Perception +5
Languages Giant
Ecology
Environment temperate or cold hills
Organization solitary, pair, gang (3–4), or family (5–16)
Treasure standard (hide armor, greatclub, 4 javelins, other treasure)
The actual text in the equipment chapter of the core rulebook details how the rule actually works. The item description in the magic item section is in error by the normal rules. The item description in the equipment chapter doesn't even call it out as a masterwork item. :\
"Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Adamantine
In case anyone was doubting that it doesn't state they get the +1 bonus or -1 ACP
So you are arguing that mithral weapons do not get the +1 bonus to hit?
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So you are arguing that mithral weapons do not get the +1 bonus to hit?"Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Adamantine
In case anyone was doubting that it doesn't state they get the +1 bonus or -1 ACP
I'm arguing they do.
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officialThings you can find in Chapter 15 of the OFFICIAL Core Rulebook:
"Elven chain" is mithral chainmail with an ACP of -2.
"Mithral full plate of speed" is mithral full plate with an ACP of -3.Those are 100% OFFICIAL facts, right there in black and white.
Now go do math.
Unfortunately, that's not a certainty, and this is why.
The actual text in the equipment chapter of the core rulebook details how the rule actually works. The item description in the magic item section is in error by the normal rules. The item description in the equipment chapter doesn't even call it out as a masterwork item. :\Ogre CR 3
XP 800
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init –1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +5
Defense
AC 17, touch 8, flat-footed 17 (+4 armor, –1 Dex, +5 natural, –1 size)
hp 30 (4d8+12)
Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +3
Offense
Speed 30 ft. (40 ft. base)
Melee greatclub +7 (2d8+7)
Ranged javelin +1 (1d8+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Statistics
Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +9; CMD 18
Feats Iron Will, Toughness
Skills Climb +7, Perception +5
Languages Giant
Ecology
Environment temperate or cold hills
Organization solitary, pair, gang (3–4), or family (5–16)
Treasure standard (hide armor, greatclub, 4 javelins, other treasure)
And your point on that greatclub is?
+7 to hit: +3 BAB, +5 Str, -1 size = +7
+7 to damage: +5 Str. +1/2*5 = 2 for two-handed = +7
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officialThings you can find in Chapter 15 of the OFFICIAL Core Rulebook:
"Elven chain" is mithral chainmail with an ACP of -2.
"Mithral full plate of speed" is mithral full plate with an ACP of -3.Those are 100% OFFICIAL facts, right there in black and white.
Now go do math.
Unfortunately, that's not a certainty, and this is why.
The actual text in the equipment chapter of the core rulebook details how the rule actually works. The item description in the magic item section is in error by the normal rules. The item description in the equipment chapter doesn't even call it out as a masterwork item. :\Ogre CR 3
XP 800
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init –1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +5
Defense
AC 17, touch 8, flat-footed 17 (+4 armor, –1 Dex, +5 natural, –1 size)
hp 30 (4d8+12)
Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +3
Offense
Speed 30 ft. (40 ft. base)
Melee greatclub +7 (2d8+7)
Ranged javelin +1 (1d8+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Statistics
Str 21, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +9; CMD 18
Feats Iron Will, Toughness
Skills Climb +7, Perception +5
Languages Giant
Ecology
Environment temperate or cold hills
Organization solitary, pair, gang (3–4), or family (5–16)
Treasure standard (hide armor, greatclub, 4 javelins, other treasure)
Not sure what you're trying to prove by linking this Ogre by the way, considering it is wielding no magical equipment.
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I'm arguing they do.So you are arguing that mithral weapons do not get the +1 bonus to hit?"Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not."
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/special-materials#TOC-Adamantine
In case anyone was doubting that it doesn't state they get the +1 bonus or -1 ACP
Thank you for the clarification. Mithral does not specifically state that weapons made from it get a modifier to attack rolls, only that they are masterwork (just like it says for armors). By the argument that the effects of the material already include modifiers from the masterwork quality, the only consistent conclusion would be that the weapons do not get the enhancement bonus to hit because it isn't included.
However the equipment chapter details what masterwork does for weapons and for armor. The mithral material notes that all items made of mithral are also masterwork. It then notes the adjustments that the material makes to those items (weapons weight half as much, penetrate DR/silver; armors get some modifiers to the armor's base statistics). It does not say that the benefits of being masterwork are included, nor does it say they are superceded, thus both rules must take effect.
So a mithral sword grants a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls and can be made into a magic item (masterwork) and weighs half as much and penetrates DR silver (mithral material).
The same would have to be true for armors as well.
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For those who didn't get it, the ogre's attack routine is wrong. The ogre should be swinging at +3 with the greatclub, not +7. Can anyone tell me why?
EDIT: The point being that because it's being used somewhere else in the book doesn't mean it's not in error according to the rules that actually govern it.
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For those who didn't get it, the ogre's attack routine is wrong. The ogre should be swinging at +3 with the greatclub, not +7. Can anyone tell me why?
** spoiler omitted **
EDIT: The point being that because it's being used somewhere else in the book doesn't mean it's not in error according to the rules that actually govern it.
The rules are probably wrong on the greatclub being a martial weapon, since the regular club is a simple weapon. Greatclub, overall, is a simpler weapon to wield than, say, a longspear or quarterstaff.
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Way to completely miss the point Lazar, good show.
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The rules are probably wrong on the greatclub being a martial weapon, since the regular club is a simple weapon. Greatclub, overall, is a simpler weapon to wield than, say, a longspear or quarterstaff.For those who didn't get it, the ogre's attack routine is wrong. The ogre should be swinging at +3 with the greatclub, not +7. Can anyone tell me why?
** spoiler omitted **
EDIT: The point being that because it's being used somewhere else in the book doesn't mean it's not in error according to the rules that actually govern it.
This is why whenever I use ogres in my games, I just replace the greatclub with a spear, large club (1d8), staff, or mace or something. :)
Monsters are proficient with weapons in their stat block. Ogres and giants are known oversights from the transition to PF.
He already did. It's in the post he made. Try reading it, maybe?
*shrugs*
I'm not sure what the confusion is, ultimately.
The Mithral section leaves the sentence starting with "thus" out of of its section:
Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type.
It's not an oversight, at least in regard to ACP. Adamantine doesn't make it easier to move in armor, so it only benefits from the ACP reduction applied by masterwork armor.
Mithral on the other hand does actually provide a reduction to ACP. Mithral says it reduces ACP by -3. Examples of Mithral Armors in the CRB (which are magical to boot) have ACP reduced by -3 from their standard versions. Mithral's ACP reduction does not stack with that from masterwork, it simply overrides it. We have clear examples in the book.
Weapons made out of special materials don't have attack bonuses because of the special materials; they have attack bonuses because they are masterwork. The material is irrelevant. So it's actually unnecessary for the special materials entries to list the attack bonus for being masterwork. Adamantine likely does it as a helpful reference without needing to physically refer back. No need to include the same information again with all the other special materials in the same section on the same page.
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Monsters are proficient with weapons in their stat block.
Actually no they aren't. Not ogres anyway.
Ogres and giants are known oversights from the transition to PF.
Giants have the necessary weapon proficiency feats for the weapons they wield. Ogres do not. However, ogres do have the benefits of the feats they have in their statblock, just their to-hit rolls are wrong because of an oversight.
Yup. Humanoid should probably have "and any weapons mentioned in its entry" too!Mark,
Are you aware of the fact that Ettins, Ogres, and Derro (I'm sure there are some others) are not proficient with the weapons listed in their stat blocks (due to changes in creature type/subtype when converting from 3.5 to PF)?
Whoop! Are you going to work towards an FAQ/errata for that?It's on my list, but it's not near the top yet, since the Bestiary entries themselves would be correct with the change made, so for someone inserting the monsters in their game, they aren't affected by it directly, if that makes sense?
To be fair, I was a little overbroad with my "monsters are proficient with items in their stat block". That might not be uniformly true, though I think it likely is the intent. If a creature is statted out using a particular weapon, you should presume they are proficient with it.
Yup. Humanoid should probably have "and any weapons mentioned in its entry" too!Mark,
Are you aware of the fact that Ettins, Ogres, and Derro (I'm sure there are some others) are not proficient with the weapons listed in their stat blocks (due to changes in creature type/subtype when converting from 3.5 to PF)?
To be fair, I was a little overbroad with my "monsters are proficient with items in their stat block". That might not be uniformly true, though I think it likely is the intent. If a creature is statted out using a particular weapon, you should presume they are proficient with it.Whoop! Are you going to work towards an FAQ/errata for that?It's on my list, but it's not near the top yet, since the Bestiary entries themselves would be correct with the change made, so for someone inserting the monsters in their game, they aren't affected by it directly, if that makes sense?
Some monsters are, according to the properties of their creature type. Humanoids are not. For the most direct comparison I can think of, hill giants have Martial Weapon Proficiency (greatclub). If the humanoid type is altered to be proficient with all weapons in its stat block, it'll break some entries. For example, hill giants will have a useless feat.
If the humanoid type isn't altered, a few humanoid monster entries currently violate the rules. It's clear they want ogres to be proficient with their stat block weapons, there was just an issue with porting things over and removing Giant as a type.
"Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0)."
Mithral armor has an armor check penalty of three less than indicated in the armor table. The hypothetical non-masterwork mithral armor would have an armor check of two less than indicated in the table, but it does not in fact exist.
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"Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0)."
Mithral armor has an armor check penalty of three less than indicated in the armor table. The hypothetical non-masterwork mithral armor would have an armor check of two less than indicated in the table, but it does not in fact exist.
Which makes sense, considering all Special Materials are considered Masterwork unless stated otherwise.
#1. Forget about the stupid Ogre and the damn Greatclub.
#2. I see where this is coming from. The Adamantine Battleaxe example in the rulebook shows that it has both the adamantine property AND the +1 enhancement of masterwork. The Mithral armor's examples show that they only have the exact same benefits from the mithril text and don't say a thing about masterwork, so it makes you wonder if they forgot to add the masterwork ACP to them, or if it's already accounted for in the mithral property. It's weird because the masterwork is not accounted for in the adamantite property.
Different from weapons, the armors +1 "bonus" to ACP from masterwork is not an enhancement bonus. Makes it harder to distinguish.
In doubt, it's best to assume that what's in the book is right and use those examples. After all, they have been the basis for other items for over 20 years, right or wrong. (And at this point, they would just say it's right. Why bother saying they made a mistake 20 years ago if they can just say they didn't)
This nonmagical axe is made out of adamantine. As a masterwork weapon, it has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
But the weapon only gets the single +1 for being masterwork, which is precisely what we've been saying should happen.
I'm not sure what the problem is.