|
Determining Subtiers
In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group
of PCs must play in, calculate the group’s average party
level (APL). Divide the total number of character levels by
the number of characters in the party. You should always
round to the nearest whole number. If you are exactly at
0.5, let the group decide which subtier they wish to play.
Starting with Season 4, scenarios are designed for six
characters and contain instructions on how to adjust the
scenario for four-character parties. When the APL of a table
is between two subtiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario),
a party of four characters must play the lower tier without
any adjustments for party size. A party of five to seven
characters whose APL is between two subtiers must play
the higher tier with the four-character adjustment.
For scenarios written in Seasons 0 to 3, when the APL is
in between subtiers, a party of six or seven characters must
play the higher subtier. Parties with four or five characters
must play the lower subtier. In the fringe case where there
are no players that are high enough to have reached the
subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters),
the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier.
Doesn't that last, bolded sentence apply to any season?
|
Yes, the intention is that line only applies to seasons 0-3. As mentioned above, later seasons have the 4 player adjustments so if your APL is between sub-tiers, with four players you must play down (no adjustments), with 5-7 players you must play up with a reduced (4 player) challenge. There is no provision for exceptions in seasons 4 or later.
In season 0-3 the intention is similar, but slightly different because there are no four-player adjustments. If you are between sub-tiers with 4-5 players, you must play down. If you are between sub-tiers with 6-7 players, you must play up. However, there is a provision for an exception. If there are no character levels actually in the higher sub-tier you may choose to play down. This helps to prevent what Nosig indicated where 4 level threes and 2 level twos (APL 2.67, rounded to 3) are forced to play in a sub-tier 4-5 where the encounters could be as high as CR8.
Rounding can have a huge impact on this especially with APLs of X.5
You should always round to the nearest whole number which should eliminate the majority of sub-tier mismatching. However, it can be tricky if the party is at say 2.5 or 3.5 and can choose to round either way. In those instances, there really needs to be a discussion amongst the players to see how they feel about playing up or down. I'm not an advocate of the GM "steering" the players towards one sub-tier or the other, but they should/could provide feedback on their impression of the difficulty of the scenario vs. the characters/resources the players are bringing to the table.
|
|
... If there are no character levels actually in the higher sub-tier you may choose to play down. This helps to prevent what Nosig indicated where 4 level threes and 2 level twos (APL 2.67, rounded to 3) are forced to play in a sub-tier 4-5 where the encounters could be as high as CR8.
...
But this situation could exactly happen in the later seasons, too. No characters in-subtier, and still playing up? The four player adjustment always seemed pretty minor to me, one less minion or something like that.
|
|
But this situation could exactly happen in the later seasons, too. No characters in-subtier, and still playing up? The four player adjustment always seemed pretty minor to me, one less minion or something like that.... If there are no character levels actually in the higher sub-tier you may choose to play down. This helps to prevent what Nosig indicated where 4 level threes and 2 level twos (APL 2.67, rounded to 3) are forced to play in a sub-tier 4-5 where the encounters could be as high as CR8.
...
Especially since you might actually have 4 players, in which case you are playing up with no (additional) adjustment.
glass.
If you have 4 players, and none of them are in the higher sub-tier, then your APL will at MOST be the mid-point between sub-tiers and you would play down. There is no way to get higher than that without anyone actually being in the higher tier.
|
|
But it sounds like people are saying if you add one person with a lower level PC to that party of 4 players, you force them into the higher sub-tier (but only in season 4, 5 or 6).But this situation could exactly happen in the later seasons, too. No characters in-subtier, and still playing up? The four player adjustment always seemed pretty minor to me, one less minion or something like that.... If there are no character levels actually in the higher sub-tier you may choose to play down. This helps to prevent what Nosig indicated where 4 level threes and 2 level twos (APL 2.67, rounded to 3) are forced to play in a sub-tier 4-5 where the encounters could be as high as CR8.
...
Especially since you might actually have 4 players, in which case you are playing up with no (additional) adjustment.
glass.
If you have 4 players, and none of them are in the higher sub-tier, then your APL will at MOST be the mid-point between sub-tiers and you would play down. There is no way to get higher than that without anyone actually being in the higher tier.
Correct. High tier with 4 player adjustment. Action economy is generally enough to make up the difference in level.
Note, I said generally, there are some scenarios where the different tier encounters are significantly skewed, but most aren't that big of a difference.
|
|
I have read thru the posts above and not I am even more confused than before.
are people actuallly saying that a group of six players, (say four 3rd levels and two 2nds,)
A) would have a choice to play lower sub-tier in a season 0 to 3 scenario, but
B) would be required to play the higher sub-tier in a season 4 to 6 scenario?
Is that what people are saying the rule is?
Wow... I know if I was one of the 2nd levels I would leave the table (as the only scenarios I can play are season 5 or 6 now). And I would try to convense another of the players to leave with me.
In a season 0 scenario, with the right mix of players I might try it, but in a season 4 or 5? I'd be a real jerk to push the other players into playing up (and IMHO that is what the last two players are doing, as without them the game plays at the players actually play at a reasonable sub-tier)
Correct. Though with B it is the 4 person adjustment for the high tier.
|
Quoted from the thread on proposed changes to the guide:
Second suggestion: In the Determining Subtier section, clarify whether the line "In the fringe case where there are no players that are high enough to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters), the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier." applies to all seasons or only seasons 0-3.
Since that line appears after the section on season 0-3 scenarios, many GMs interpret it as not applying to seasons 4-6, while others believe that it applies to all seasons. Put another way, if a 6 player table APL 2.6 in a season 4-6 scenario does not have a 4th or 5th level character in the group, must they still play the 4-5 tier with the 4 player adjustment, or do they have the choice to play 1-2 with no adjustment?
LINK to a relevant discussion.
I understand that this might be a little off-topic, but it seems that there might need to be some clarification.
Put it another way: If there are people out there who believe that an APL of 2.6 should be rounded up to 3, then further rounded up to 4 in order to determine subtier, a clarification is really warranted. As I see it, in this situation, the subtier should either be rounded up to 4, or down to 2. The only time that these clauses should be important is if the APL is exactly between tiers; that is 3.0, without rounding.
APL 2.6 does round to 3. There's no further rounding to 4. Once it is rounded to 3, the number of characters determines which subtier should be played. In season 0-3, 6 or 7 characters would play tier 4-5. In seasons 4-6, 5, 6, or 7 characters would play 4-5 with the 4 player adjustment.
If this were not the case, then the special rule about being able to choose how you want .5 to round would not need to exist, and it would say always round down instead of round to the nearest level.
The question here was whether, if there are no characters in the 4-5 tier, a party would still have to play up if they end up between subtiers. I could as easily have used a party of all 3rd level characters in my example.
