Remaining Invisible While Casting

[Risen Demon]

Hey everyone.

I want to look into making an arcanist that would spend combats invisible. He would be using the ability granted by the Occultist Archetype to summon monsters, and buff his summons and his allies. I am just unsure what spells and actions would cause me to break invisibility. Could someone provide me with some spells that would let me remain invisible while casting?

Thanks in advance, guys

[Sagiso]

What level do you want this for? The first thing to mind is simply "greater invisibility" but it might come into play a bit late since it's a 4th level spell.

[Risen Demon]

This would be for a level 5 start until we reach level 8 when I got access to greater invisibility. I would most likely debuff until an enemy closed in on me, then I would cast invisibility and get farther away so I could buff my summons and allies

[Sagiso]

Well, if all you're doing after casting invisibility is summon and buff your allies... you should be fine that way. Summoning monsters and having them attack doesn't break the invisibility spell.
Might wanna make sure you can cast quietly though, so "silent spell" could be worth a look.

[blahpers]

As long as you don't target, include, or damage an enemy, you're in good shape with regular invisibility effects.

[Decimus Drake]

Invisibility only breaks if you directly attack something. So summoning a monster to attack or pulling a lever that triggers a trap won't remove invisibility. I'm not sure about aoes (e.g. fireball) but I don't think they remove indivisibility either but firing a ray attack that misses would.

[Risen Demon]

I had heard that an AoE spell, such as Fireball, would break invisibility...is that correct?

[Avoron]

Yes, it is. Casting area of effect spells that include enemies in their area breaks invisibility (unless the spells don't effect those enemies).

[Sagiso]

Quote:

The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.

Sorry, better halt those fireballs until you get greater invis.

[Risen Demon]

So that would mean that there is no way for me to directly affect enemies until I get greater invisibility except for summoning and buffing. That's fine, it's only a few levels anyway. And blasts aren't the best unless you one-trick-pony it.

[Risen Demon]

Awesome, thanks guys!

So, what are some spells you would recommend? I'm completely new to spellcasting...I've really only played martial classes up until now

[Avoron]

Summon Swarm
Grease (to target objects people are carrying) (pretty sure this is allowed)

[Risen Demon]

Hmm...don't know why but I've never thought of Summon Swarm...would the feat Augment Summoning work with it?

Also, are you sure Grease would let me remain invisible? I mean...technically the effect is targeting the item, not the enemy, so it should work

[Bob Bob Bob]

I never recommend Summon Swarm except as a hilarious comedy of errors. Or as a way to solo two-thirds of the bosses in PFS, but that's a different thread. The important part is "If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel." You don't control it, you sic it on your enemies and hope it never turns on your allies (hope they're not melee types). Or, as I've seen more than once, open a door, summon a swarm immune to weapon damage, close the door, and wait.

As for a grease on a held object, invisibility says that unattended objects do not break stealth, presumably attended ones do. That the wielder/holder has to make the Reflex save reinforces that.

[Nosdarb]

Avoron wrote:

Summon Swarm

Grease (to target objects people are carrying) (pretty sure this is allowed)

Nope.

The issue isn't damaging opponents. It's targeting them. Non-damaging spells qualify as attacking the enemy. He can't even grease the floor they're standing on. Though he could grease areas into which the enemy had not yet entered.

Basically, if the enemy gets a saving throw then it breaks invis. Also, if there's an attack roll involved, then it breaks invis.

[Claxon]

The general rule is if you spell or ability or whatever targets or includes an enemy and would directly affect them, it ends regular Invisibility.

However, summons are an example where it does not directly affect invisibility. Neither would cutting the ropes of a rope bridge while the enemy was walking across it. However firing an arrow at that enemy would.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Vomit Swarm, on the other hand, does give you control over the swarm. If you can get over the disgusting fluff, it's very effective against many things.

[Risen Demon]

Ok, so it looks like I will have to stick to buffing as opposed to debuffing if I want to stay invisible. Thanks guys!

Another thing I'm looking at is the witch spell list vs the wizard list (Unlettered Occultist vs stock Occultist). Which list is better for buffing?

[mbauers]

How badly do you need to be invisible? Have you considered Mirror Image? Protects very well and won't go away if you attack. Meanwhile, if someone has See Invisibility you are screwed if your only defense is invisibility.

[Risen Demon]

Hmm...that is true. I was thinking Invisibility because it has utility outside of combat, but I could have both prepared everyday and not feel bad about not using it...was thinking of the Arcanist as a Wizard for a minute lol

[Dragonchess Player]

Risen Demon wrote:

Another thing I'm looking at is the witch spell list vs the wizard list (Unlettered Occultist vs stock Occultist). Which list is better for buffing?

In general, sorcerer/wizard. The witch list (without the ability to gain patron spells) lacks several key buff spells, such as haste.

If you have another caster with a different spell list (like a bard or summoner) that can share buffing duties, it can work OK. However, the basic witch spell list is geared more toward debuffing than buffing (or even blasting).

[Avoron]

Not all effects that cause creatures to make saving throws are considered attacks against that creature. Silent image, for example, has a saving throw, but does not target the creature that makes the save, and is not an attack against that creature (at least, I'm pretty sure we could all agree on that).
Likewise, setting an empty part of the floor on fire with burning hands would not be an attack against your enemies, even if your enemies have to make a Reflex save the next turn to avoid the rapidly spreading flames.
Grease does not target your enemies. In one form, it includes your enemies in its area, so it is an attack. In another form, it simply targets an object.

You seem to be mixing up the rules for attacks, which say that "all spells that opponents resist with saving throws" are attacks, with the rules for invisibility, which say that "the spell ends if the subject attacks any creature."

There is absolutely no rule saying that the spell ends if you attack an attended object, even if it immediately causes a negative effect for an enemy.