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Bat shape:
Spoiler:
"Benefit: You can take the form of a bat whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form. You gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks to appear as a bat. Changing from werebat-kin to bat shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly."
Beast Shape 2:
Spoiler:
"This spell functions as beast shape I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 60 feet, fly 60 feet (good maneuverability), swim 60 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, grab, pounce, and trip.
Tiny animal: If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a -2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.
Large animal: If the form you take is that of a Large animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a -2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus."
But bats are diminutive. Do you become a tiny bat? Do you become a diminutive bat, but use the tiny animal ability modifiers from beast shape 2? Does that feat contain a typo, and it should read beast shape 3? Something else? I lean towards you becoming diminutive and using tiny animal stats as making the most sense, due to bats being diminutive, and the 'otherwise functions as' wording granting you as much as is applicable from the list of climb, fly, and swim speeds, etc.
Edit: also, does using the feat count as using a skinwalker's change shape ability? If not, can you use the feat to turn into a bat, then use skinwalker's change shape ability to turn into some sort of super bat?
As written, "you take the form of a bat...this ability otherwise functions as beast shape II" would seem to indicate that you become a diminutive bat, but I agree that that seems like a typo. I would probably argue that you become a Tiny bat (which has real-life precedent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megabat), rather than that it works like Beast Shape III, just by the power difference.
Bump? I want to take this feat, but I want to know how it works too. None of the differences are particularly significant, frankly even basing it off of beast shape 3 wouldn't be that big a deal in the scheme of things, blindsense 20 wouldn't be that scary of of a thing for a DM to contend with even at level 1. Though I definitely don't think beast shape 3 is what's used, as written now, of course. For what it's worth, I don't think you'd be an unusually sized bat based on the writing of the feat - hence the +10 to disguise checks to make everyone think you're a normal bat, which definitely would not be tiny sized. A tiny sized bat should probably get a negative disguise modifier to make people think it's not unusual, that'd be freaking scary!
This functions similar to a Druid's Wildshape ability.
You have the choice of Tiny or Large sized Bat. Once you make this choice, you must always turn into that sized Bat. If Bats happen to have Fly speed, Darkvision, LowLight vision, Scent, Grab, Pounce, or Trip, you gain those abilities. You gain all of the Bat's Natural Attacks. You use YOUR modifiers/attributes/etc.
Depending on what size you choose, you gain a bonus to Dexterity/Str/Natural Armor.
Keep in mind you're mimicking a Bat, not turning into the Bat that is in the bestiary - Only taking certain parts of it and otherwise obeying the Beast Shape II Spell.
Also, this wouldn't count as a Skinwalker's change ability, as this is taking on the form and not the actual Subrace of Werebat-kin. I'm pretty sure these would combine, as one is a Size bonus and the other is a Racial bonus; One is a Form whereas another is a Subrace.
Beast Shape allows you to take the form of an animal of any size, even those that don't make sense. Beast Shape II could turn you into a Large house cat, or a Small elephant, or a Tiny manatee.
At least that's how my group reads it. Haven't seen any FAQs on it. If there are, by all means, correct me.
This functions similar to a Druid's Wildshape ability.
You have the choice of Tiny or Large sized Bat. Once you make this choice, you must always turn into that sized Bat. If Bats happen to have Fly speed, Darkvision, LowLight vision, Scent, Grab, Pounce, or Trip, you gain those abilities. You gain all of the Bat's Natural Attacks. You use YOUR modifiers/attributes/etc.
Depending on what size you choose, you gain a bonus to Dexterity/Str/Natural Armor.
Keep in mind you're mimicking a Bat, not turning into the Bat that is in the bestiary - Only taking certain parts of it and otherwise obeying the Beast Shape II Spell.
Also, this wouldn't count as a Skinwalker's change ability, as this is taking on the form and not the actual Subrace of Werebat-kin. I'm pretty sure these would combine, as one is a Size bonus and the other is a Racial bonus; One is a Form whereas another is a Subrace.
This strikes me as a plausibly correct interpretation by RAW, though its ramifications are terrifying. Skinwalkers already made good barbarians before, but if this is just too good. In exchange for pumping 13 into charisma and their first level feat, they can combine this with their racial transformation to negate the beast shape dex penalty, and come out with flight, +4 strength, +4 natural armor, and one of the bloodmarked transformation abilities (primary bite attack or perception bonus being the obvious choices). At first level. Then again, ragebred skinwalker bloodragers can get 6 natural attacks at level 1. Man, it's a good thing there won't be many skinwalkers in PFS.
Beast Shape allows you to take the form of an animal of any size, even those that don't make sense. Beast Shape II could turn you into a Large house cat, or a Small elephant, or a Tiny manatee.
At least that's how my group reads it. Haven't seen any FAQs on it. If there are, by all means, correct me.
"When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type."
Any small or medium creature which is animal. Not any animal at small or medium size. Elephants as listed are huge, and so you can't beast shape 1 into a small/medium elephant.
Beast Shape allows you to take the form of an animal of any size, even those that don't make sense. Beast Shape II could turn you into a Large house cat, or a Small elephant, or a Tiny manatee.
At least that's how my group reads it. Haven't seen any FAQs on it. If there are, by all means, correct me.
"When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type."
Any small or medium creature which is animal. Not any animal at small or medium size. Elephants as listed are huge, and so you can't beast shape 1 into a small/medium elephant.
Eh, that's not worded quite clearly enough for me. I see your logic, though. But we don't play PFS, so I'll call it a house rule.
I did see that threads on this had been made before, and marked for the FAQ. Did an answer ever make its way to the FAQ? Otherwise I can't find anything in other forum threads besides other people like me shooting in the dark at the many different possible interpretations.
It seems likely at this point that there isn't a concrete answer to this question yet. What would be the most appropriate course of action, mark my original post for the FAQ, or add another FAQ request to one of the older threads?
There was a similar situation for the Eagle Shaman mentioned in the FAQs (only necessary because you're not supposed to be able to Polymorph into a creature of any size other than the regular sized version):
"Druid, Eagle Shaman: How can I take the form of a roc if a roc is Gargantuan and the maximum size I can reach with wild shape is Huge?
The lack of suitable giant bird stat blocks in official Paizo products hinders the rules options for this archetype.
To remedy this problem, an eagle shaman druid can use wild shape to take the form of a Medium eagle (as if applying the giant creature simple template to a Small eagle), and can use wild shape to take the form of a Huge roc (as if applying the young creature simple template to a Gargantuan roc). Abilities of the assumed form are determined by which beast shape spell the wild shape ability functions as, as determined by the eagle shaman's effective druid level.
This ruling only applies to the eagle shaman, not any other kind of animal shaman archetype."
I think it's reasonable to apply a similar rule for turning into a bat, though it would be nice if this were to be made official.
Hm, in thinking about it more, the presence of dire bat shape as a feat makes me think that bat shape, at least as far as intent, definitely should not grant an option for a large size. My hunch is that the intent is that they wanted you to become a bat, as the creature, but then they didn't want you getting blindsense, so they used beast shape 2 as a basis. And of course I doubt they intended for bat shape and a skinchanger's normal transformation abilities to be stackable. But speculation of course is pointless, there are just too many possibilities.
So, what would be the most appropriate course of action? Should I mark my original post for the FAQ, or add another mark to the original post in this previous thread?
Add another to the original. I'm pretty sure someone in Paizo has a big list of all the most FAQed posts. FAQing a second post asking the same question isn't going help.
You would become a diminutive bat using the already published stat block for a bat as a guide. You would then use the guidelines set out in beast shape II to adjust your stats.
From the wording of the feat: "You can take the form of a bat . . .". Not a tiny bat, not a large bat. A bat, which is already defined within the rule set. (although props to slitherrr and his mega bat, made me smile and was educational too). I agree with Tarantula's post earlier on why this is the case. Although transforming into a colossal cheetah and crushing a large portion of the city with a single charge would be sweet it would not be allowed.
Now for adjusting your stats: While it isn't explicitly stated it seems to me that the intent was to limit the benefits given by the feat to those of the tiny form of beast shape II. I agree with OP that giving a character the sizable combat benefits of a level 4 spell with a permanent duration was probably not the intent. The tiny version however reduces strength, removes hands and thus the use of weapons, gimps your CMB/CMD, and forces you to enter a creature's square to attack it, thus provoking an attack of opportunity which will probably result in you being tripped easily to the ground or grappled and choked out.
From the wording of the feat (emphasis mine): "This ability OTHERWISE functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly".
The "otherwise" is important here because as already pointed out, a bat is not a legal form for beast shape II. So as in the first sentence we take on the form of the bat then adjust stats from there which we otherwise could not do.
Yes it would be considered a use of the shape change ability.
From the wording of the feat (again, emphasis mine): "YOUR powers of transformation have been HONED to the point where you can wholly become a BAT".
Seems like the author is trying to use his words to tell us that the intent of the feat is to improve upon a "power of transformation" we already posses. Seeing as "werebat-kin" is a prerequisite my first instinct was to check the rules for the race and boy was I surprised to find a power of transformation clearly listed there (I wasn't surprised of course, excuse the sarcasm, this post is getting long. I gotta have some fun).
Tying the feat to Change Shape ability gives it concrete rules for duration, uses per day, and labels it as an (Su) ability. so no, it won't work in an anti-magic field where the general feat taken in isolation presumably would. It also answers OP's "super bat" question. Yes you get the usual benefits of the change shape ability (+2 Dex and a choice off the chart).
OP made an excellent point about the disguise bonus. A cat is "tiny", if I see a cat sized bat flying around I'm going to know something is up. Unless of course I happened to be in the Eastern Mediterranean or South Asia where megabats roam ;) Also note that a mega bat is not the same species as a common bat, nor would a large bat be. And to all the munchkins out there about to say, "yeah, but it doesn't say what species of bat . . ." there are only rules for common bats. If you want to be a mega, super, or collosi-bat take it up with your DM.
TLDR: Bat Shape is a feat that enhances the Were-bat's shape changing ability. It allows a diminutive form not usually allowed with Beast Shape II while adjusting the stats according to the standard rules for bats and Beast Shape II. Therefore it does cost a use of the Change Shape ability and you do get your +2 Dex and a choice from the list for being in bestial form. Full explanation above.
Cheers folks, I hope all that has been helpful to some.
