If I drop a Splash weapon as a free action in an adjacent square, what happens?

[Elbedor]

Does it just clatter to the ground?

Does it burst open/shatter on impact and deal splash damage as normal?

They are designed to break on impact, but I'm wondering if just dropping it provides enough of that "impact" to count.

[themightyjello]

If you get knocked unconscious with a backpack full of alchemist fire, do you burst into a towering inferno?

Everything is cleaner if they only shatter on an attack roll because they're being thrown with enough force to break them.

[Pizza Lord]

If you drop something breakable, with the intention to break it, I would say it probably breaks. That's not a Rules-based observation in this case, since dropping items it typically a free action and can get abused.

You have to be wary of letting it get out of hand. Say, someone carrying an armful of holy water vials and dropping them all as free actions or Quick Drawing a dozen such items to just 1 hit point an enemy into oblivion with splash damage(assumption being that you're immune or protected from the splash damage you would take.)

So it's probably better to say that if you want to make sure they break it takes an action.

I have been wondering about a related situation:
Can a monk Deflect a ranged touch attack such as alchemist's fire or acid? If so, what happens to the item? Where does it land to determine splash damage?

[themightyjello]

Pizza Lord wrote:

I have been wondering about a related situation:

Can a monk Deflect a ranged touch attack such as alchemist's fire or acid? If so, what happens to the item? Where does it land to determine splash damage?

Technically the effect of Deflect Arrows specifically states that once per round you can deflect a ranged attack that would have hit you so that you take no damage from it. The FAQ states that this is not counted as a miss (the attack still hits you), you just take no damage.

Since splash damage is only adjacent to the squares in which the splash weapon lands, you would not take any splash damage from the attack that hit you but dealt no damage.

I actually had a character using Missile Shield (does the same thing as deflect arrows, but with a shield) and was surrounded once, so I told our alchemist to throw a bomb at me.

[Elbedor]

Dropping an armful of Holy Water sounds like it would get awfully expensive. 1pt of damage per 25gps? Ouch!

I was thinking more like if I had an Acid flask in hand and the enemy closed to melee. Not wanting to take the time to put it away while I then get a weapon out, could I just drop the thing and pull my weapon without worrying about it shattering at my feet and hitting me for damage?

Sounds like a GM call as I couldn't find any rule to say either way.

[Secane]

Possible outcomes:

1) If you drop it with the "intent" for it to break? - Your free action gets upgraded into a standard action as the Alchemical Fire/Acid breaks and deal slash damage on you. If that is all your actions for your turn, the game moves on to the next person in the init order.

2) If you drop it with no intention for it to break? - It just drops on the ground. You can pick it again later or leave it behind.

[Eridan]

Substance Hardness and Hit Points wrote:

Glass, Hardness 1, HP 1/in. of thickness

A normal vial has hardness 1 and 1 hitpoint. 'Falling damage' is 1d6 / 10ft. fallen. As long as you are taller than 10ft. the vial wont break if you let it fall to the ground.

[Mike J]

Technically, you can't target a square with a throw splash weapon. You can target a creature in a specific square or a grid intersection, but not the square itself.

"Drop" a thrown splash weapon in a square (action = Drop An Item) = free action, should be no breakage (see Eridan's post on fall damage). This action could not be interpreted as a Ranged Attack since the target is not valid.
"Drop" a thrown splash weapon on a creature or grid intersection (action = Ranged Attack) = standard action (provokes AoO), ranged touch attack, breakage/damage/deviation/etc. This action could not be interpreted as Drop An Item because you can't drop gear on a creature or grid intersection without making an attack.

Naturally, your GM can rule it anyway he or she wants.

[Elbedor]

If a GM wanted to tracking falling damage, falling objects cause damage to things they fall on and themselves based on their size. A flask of Acid is probably Diminutive. The size chart lists Small as doing 2d6. Reduce this to 1d8 for Tiny and 1d6 for Diminutive. Then halve the damage since it is falling less than 30ft. That leaves us with 1d3. 1pt would be absorbed by the Hardness. 2 or 3 would break it.

Or for simplicity sake just say it doesn't break since it wasn't an attack. Good to know if you need to drop it to free up a hand for something else. :)

[That Crazy Alchemist]

If you are attacking the floor it is a Standard action and all normal effects apply. If you are simply dropping the item as a free action it would break but no damage, splash or anything would occur since the item was not used as a weapon. If you are looking to avoid that then purchase some Iron Flasks, they are handy.

[slitherrr]

Mike J wrote:

Technically, you can't target a square with a throw splash weapon. You can target a creature in a specific square or a grid intersection, but not the square itself.

This is false:

combat: Throw Splash Weapon wrote:

www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Throw-Splash-Weapon

You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5.

That out of the way, I agree that any "drop" as a free action from normal height will not do damage to the vial, and that you'd need to upgrade to a standard action to do anything interesting. I don't think this should actually be argued from a "it doesn't fall far enough to do damage" standpoint, but from a "this is a useful rules distinction that keeps some silly crap from being possible" angle, even though the former isn't too crazy. "A drop action does not break things--you need to use an attack for that" is a useful line in the sand.

It's a little different if it's being dropped from some more ridiculous height, but if a player wanted to try to take advantage of this, I'd probably rule that the vial doesn't break at less than 20', and a flat 50% chance the vial doesn't break if it's dropped from more than 20' (and not bother making rules for anything past that--terminal velocity for a vial probably isn't that high and solving a fluid dynamics problem for this is going too far for something that's pretty stupid to begin with), and also widen the range for where the vial actually hits, since a free action gives no time or opportunity to actually aim the thing (which just usually isn't a problem if you're standing at normal height).

[Avoron]

I'm pretty sure Mike J was distinguishing between targeting a square and targeting an intersection, not saying that you can't target the ground. And I don't think the question is whether it breaks, because breaking a splash weapon doesn't necessarily cause it to deal damage.

[themightyjello]

If you sunder a splash weapon, it doesn't RAW deal splash damage. So whether it breaks or not when you drop it, it should be assumed that it wouldn't deal splash damage to adjacent squares because you didn't use the standard action to make an attack roll with it.

[Elbedor]

I think that makes sense, although I can see GMs house-ruling that sundering a splash weapon causes basic splash damage...

...as the marines discovered when shooting Aliens at close range.

[Wheldrake]

Wasn't the loose vial on the floor scene in the second Indiana Jones movie? It didn't seem all that fragile.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, this is an important issue, especially, if you are a Haunted Oracle.

[Wheldrake]

If you drop it during a free action, nothing should happen.

There should be no way of making a free action deal damage in any way (at least independently of a standard action).

[blackbloodtroll]

What about caltrops?

[Wheldrake]

"Scattering" or "spreading" caltrops must be at least a move action, as for "manipulating an object", and not simply "dropping" them. A case could be made for it taking a full-round action. Sadly, the rules appear to be silent on the action economy of caltrops.

If you allow damage dealing actions on your free action, all sorts of funky shenanigans could get going.

[What's in the box?]

If it were dropped and broke wouldn't whatever liquid is inside of the vial just puddle at that location? I mean it might splash a little but 5' in every direction seems a little extraordinary.

It would seem like the only person who would suffer from a dropped Acid flask would be the person standing in the square where it was dropped? As now you are standing in a puddle of acid...

[shroudb]

i would use something like this maybe:

50% chance to break on contact with the ground

since there is no force behind it, it just splashes to the one tile you dropped it, not all the surrounding ones

[Jokem]

I agree with jello.
It gets really complicated when you can drop an item and have it affect the square it falls in without an attack roll. Think about what happens when a character is affected by a sleep spell holding a vial of acid? Gets ugly real quick.
I think I would rule is is OK to drop a lit torch into one of the adjacent squares then smash a bottle of flaming oil there - which automatically ignites.

[slitherrr]

Avoron wrote:

I'm pretty sure Mike J was distinguishing between targeting a square and targeting an intersection

In the context, a "grid intersection" is a square, which is made clear by the graphic insert. My point stands.