|
Sohei monk is likely going to be the best option. You will be stuck at 1d6 unarmed strike damage, but you will have up to +7 to hit and damage thanks to weapon training, gloves of dueling, and brawling armor. Add a huge bonus to initiative and the ability to always act in a surprise round and you're doing well.
Since it has been stablished that pummeling style only works with unarmed strikes (seriously, not even close weapons? T-T) I have been thinking of what would be the best combination for a character that specializes in performing poweful backspin kicks (pummeling style) and flying side kicks (pummeling charge), how can I maximize damage? And as much as I understand that critical hits are great they wouldn't do much for me as I can't affect a lot of enemies, so unless I can critical hit any kind of enemy somehow I would rather focus on non-precision-based damage.
Can you explain what you mean by "non-precision-based damage"? Critical hit damage is explicitly not precision based, since precision damage isn't multiplied on a critical hit.
More creatures are subject to critical hits than are subject to precision damage, and you don't have the concealment issue with critical hits either.
More creatures are subject to critical hits than are subject to precision damage, and you don't have the concealment issue with critical hits either.
Well technically concealment doesn't stop precision damage in general, it only stops Sneak Attack.
|
|
Sohei seems much worse than a Brawler, a Brawler gets the best of two worlds (fighter and monk), also a kicker is not exactly "horse friendly", it would be weird in this character concept.
Sohei gets the best of the monk and fighter features. The horse stuff on Sohei is completely optional, there is nothing forcing you to take mounted bonus feats, and you don't get a companion.
Weapon training is much more useful to a flurry build than scaling monk damage and fighter feats.
|
Sohei isn't the way to go if you're going unarmed. It's a very solid archetype - just not if you're going unarmed. If you go sohei - there's no reason to go unarmed, as you're just lowering your damage, crit, making enchanting your weapon cost double & using up your neck slot.
It sounds like you're going for a pretty standard brawler build only with the the pummeling feats. (which nearly all unarmed monks/brawlers will now use)
If you don't go with the Quigong - you should probably go brawler instead of monk, as that's the main advantage of monk now. (besides better will saves)
Other than using pummeling style and no magic - you haven't really said what you want to do with this character.
Offense based?
More defensive?
Sweep their legs/kick them in their faces? (Can be good with a brawler's Manuver Training combined with Vicious Stomp & eventually Greater Trip - trip them get 2 unarmed AOOs from them falling.)
|
|
The crit range of 20 x2 kills unarmed builds.
That's part of what the pummeling style feats fix, as a crit on one of your swings equals a crit on all of them.
In addition - the fighter will be much weaker at lower levels, and you're ignoring all of the secondary abilities that the brawler gets.
(And how many campaigns actually get to level 20 anyway? I've only had 1 get into the teens - and that was basically just for the climax of the campaign.)
|
|
1 - Ability Scores really matter here because a pure fighter would work better with full STR investment while Brawler would fit better with at least a little dex... BUT... a pure fighter would need dex anyway to get two weapon fighting so...
Of note - the brawler doesn't need Int 13 to grab combat expertise and it's manuver feats. In addition, they get extra bonuses to them. I really think one of the coolest unarmed combos is Improved Trip/Combat Reflexes/Vicious Stomp/Greater Trip
2 - The defensive aspect falls into the same category I think as a fighter can wear heavy armor and the brawler isn't supposed to so a fighter would benefit better from a "kind of low" DEX build while brawler would work better with high DEX, but again, brawler doesn't need dex for TWF and fighter does
As long as you have a dex of 16ish, your AC should be solid enough. (the min for the TWF fighter anyway) At level 4 you start getting extra AC bonuses with light armor. (or a mithril breastplate)
Also of note - the brawler has better skill points/better saves/and several other cool abilities.
I like the fighter class as a whole despite its issues. But a brawler is (and should be) the better class for unarmed fighting.
|
|
Sohei isn't the way to go if you're going unarmed. It's a very solid archetype - just not if you're going unarmed. If you go sohei - there's no reason to go unarmed, as you're just lowering your damage, crit, making enchanting your weapon cost double & using up your neck slot.
I disagree, soley because it's the only class that gets Flurry, Weapon Training, and access to Brawling Armor. The brawling enchant is another +2 to hit and damage on top of your amulet enhancement, Weapon Training is +5 to hit and damage when combined with gloves of dueling, and Pummeling Style makes up for the lack of crit range.
It's better than the brawler because Ki will give you another attack on a flurry/pummeling charge, and the +7 to hit and damage is better than the brawlers +2 to hit and damage + scaling damage.
The only option that is better at pure unarmed damage than the sohei is the Sacred Fist, but the OP didn't want a magical option.
Soehi is better out of the box with weapons no doubt, but they can be VERY effective unarmed as well.
Sohei seems much worse than a Brawler, a Brawler gets the best of two worlds (fighter and monk), also a kicker is not exactly "horse friendly", it would be weird in this character concept.
Who says it is just a horse using class. Sure, it has that one ability, and it can take mounted feats (it was always vague on whether that replaced the normal bonus feat options, or just expanded them), but the important parts are the ones Imbicatus mentioned: weapon training, access to armor, and access to dueling gloves.
When you have pummeling style, the monk is basically a full BAB character. So the +7 to attack on top of that makes them very competitive. Only the mutagenic mauler can compete, relying upon mutagens and the bonus damage it receives while using mutagens. And at that point it is a question of a few more damage, or more attack as well as a good will save and huge initiative bonuses.
Sohei isn't the way to go if you're going unarmed. It's a very solid archetype - just not if you're going unarmed. If you go sohei - there's no reason to go unarmed, as you're just lowering your damage, crit, making enchanting your weapon cost double & using up your neck slot.
Not really. One of the main reasons that pummeling style is restricted to unarmed attacks is because of the crazy clause about critting and threatening to crit with your whole full attack. Once you get a few attacks in and adds on improved critical, you are starting to hit like high crit weapons. That is because the math is to see the chance that you will NOT crit with any of your numerous attacks...and eventually that really turns in your favor, even if you started with a 20/x2.
And since the style is meant to steal DR's lunch money, you can actually use options that were not practical before. Greater magic fang or greater magic weapon, which means you are good with just a couple divine spells per day for attack and damage bonuses; your slot suddenly becomes pearls of power (give them extra spells so they can cast on you without wasting resources), which go for 9,000-16,000 depending on the caster (and that covers the entire +1-+5 spectrum). Of course, you could just go with the regular AoMF and use qinggong to grab bark skin for natural armor (Grab ki leech later and spam that for tons of ki too).
Of course, your argument about weapon choice works for the brawler too. It can flurry with monk weapons, and it can flurry with bayonets from the get go. So it has plenty of options for going 2 handed for a lot of power attack damage when it gets 2 handed bonuses over all its flurry hits. And an unarmed brawler would sacrifice their neck slot just as much as a sohei. But you still go there because pummeling style and charge are awesome, and pseudo pounce is worth the extra price.
|
|
Sohei is completely out of the character concept, if she were to be a monk, she would never trade unarmed damage for mount stuff, it makes sense when you think about mechanics but it doesn't make any sense if you think about the character.
Can you picture someone who is focusing on mastering their martial arts kicks stop training their unarmed strikes to learn animal stuff they couldn't care less?
It is like... "I want to kick like Chun Li! I know what I have to do! I will play with my dog and later I will go to the pet shop! *-*"
You are over-focusing on a single class feature. You are not trading away unarmed damage. A core monk at level 20 does 2d10 damage for an average of 11 points of damage per hit. A sohei does 1d6+7 damage for an average of 10.5 damage per hit. On top of that, the sohei will have +7 to hit over the monk, and the game values each +1 to hit as worth +2 to damage.
|
|
You are over-focusing on a single class feature. You are not trading away unarmed damage. A core monk at level 20 does 2d10 damage for an average of 11 points of damage per hit. A sohei does 1d6+7 damage for an average of 10.5 damage per hit. On top of that, the sohei will have +7 to hit over the monk, and the game values each +1 to hit as worth +2 to damage.Sohei is completely out of the character concept, if she were to be a monk, she would never trade unarmed damage for mount stuff, it makes sense when you think about mechanics but it doesn't make any sense if you think about the character.
Can you picture someone who is focusing on mastering their martial arts kicks stop training their unarmed strikes to learn animal stuff they couldn't care less?
It is like... "I want to kick like Chun Li! I know what I have to do! I will play with my dog and later I will go to the pet shop! *-*"
Of note also - that's only true at level 20. At lower levels, the Sohei is more than .5 damage behind (since at mid levels the non-sohei will grab a monk's robe - which doesn't help at 20) and this isn't an MMO - how many campaigns really get to level 20?
|
|
That's a little bit of a stormwind fallacy there, but nothing about the Sohei CONCEPTUALLY, ROLE PLAYING demands that you play with Garfield, Scooby Doo and his friends. The class gets handle animal as a class skill that you can put 0 ranks into. The class can use it's ki to enhance a mount, but it doesn't get a mount. It's not a cavalier, ranger, druid, or hunter.
It is designed to be a temple guardian, and in exchange for extra vigilance and training with armor, you gave up fast movement. Because of that you may from time to time, need to ride a horse. If you do, you can shield your mount a little bit. You never need use it, but if you get on a mount, you can help them out a little bit.
But guess what? a Sohei is not tied down to being a temple guardian.
A class is NOTHING but a collection of mechanical benefits. You can make your character conceptually fit into any role you wish to play regardless of class.
I'm going to bow out here, because you seem to have a different set of criteria, and that's fine. But just because a class fluff says one thing, does not mean your character has to match that fluff.
Since it has been stablished that pummeling style only works with unarmed strikes (seriously, not even close weapons? T-T) I have been thinking of what would be the best combination for a character that specializes in performing poweful backspin kicks (pummeling style) and flying side kicks (pummeling charge), how can I maximize damage? And as much as I understand that critical hits are great they wouldn't do much for me as I can't affect a lot of enemies, so unless I can critical hit any kind of enemy somehow I would rather focus on non-precision-based damage.
I'm not looking for anything overpowered, the character concept is a martial artist girl training to deliver the strongest kick possible but she is not into receiving powers from gods, alchemy and magic, she something like Gai Sensei from Naruto, so I was thinking of brawler (and it's archetypes), brawler fighter archetype, mobile fighter archetype, martial artist and others like these, I'm more inclined to fighter-like choices for the high BAB.
I'm open to suggestion about everything, from class and feats to traits and races except for magic, alchemy and other stuff like that.
I think Brawler is great for unarmed combat damage, plus you get proficiency in other weapons just in case you need a particular material type. I suggest for boosting your damage for pummeling style, you should consider getting a monk's robe, which does work on the Brawler's unarmed damage table. There's also the stonefist gloves, which unfortunately is a mythic crafted item but there are non-mythic items that can do the same (Increase your damage to one size category larger). With those two items in tandem, your unarmed damage is something along the line of 3D8 per punch at level 10 ish, more if you have a Amulet of mighty fists and an actual enlarge person spell/potion cast on you.
A great feat that takes time but is generally is worth it is Belier's Bite, which puts 1D4 bleed damage on each unarmed strike you deal. I don't believe it stacks, but I do think that the highest rolled applies, so you get a lot of chances to inflict 4 bleed a turn on a target. I like bleed damage since it bypasses DR and can make otherwise tough opponents crumble so long as you can outlast them.
Power attack is great, though I'm not sure how to interpret how Furious Focus applies when used with Pummeling style. I think it would just negate the penalty on the first of the attack rolls you make, though technically it's all considered one attack? Ugh. I don't know but if it is considered one attack it can be pretty powerful of a bonus.
Would other depictions of sohei affect that view though?
While there is that line of flavor text, and a few abilities that slightly encourage it... one of the most famous popculture depictions of sohei revolves around a man on foot- The story of Benkei.
The story is brought up enough with anything Japan related- Benkei posted himself at a bridge in the capital (at the time) and took to challenging samurai and taking their swords as prizes. After defeating 999 opponents, he was finally defeated in a duel against Yohsitsune. Afterwards, he later became Yoshitsune's retainer (he would later die as a bad mofo since he continued to stand, riddled with arrows, long after his death- he is most famous for standing on his own two feet).
Now, if you were going to complain about 'flavor', then you would have a much stronger case if you said that sohei typically used polearms, such as naginata, rather than focusing on unarmed techniques (although I guess they would be ok with those too- hard to be a skilled warrior without some degree of unarmed training)
|
|
Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using the Sohei archetype to make something that isn't a soehi. A class is not a title. A class is not a description of a character. A class is nothing but the mechanics of what the character can do. A character has no idea what a class even is.
I can make a barbarian that has never taken a foot outside a city and is just an ordinary guy with anger issues.
I can make a fighter who is a pacifist that never uses violence or ever touched a weapon.
I can make the most skilled thief and backstabber in the land without ever using the Rogue class.
You asked for a character that had the mechanics to meet your concept of a perfect kicker. I gave you the option that I feel met those mechanics. The backstory and characterization of your character has nothing to do with what is in the class box.
These kind of arguments are why I prefer skill based game systems.
I would abuse the ability of certain archetypes to ignore pre-reqs.
Take one level of Unarmed Fighter and grab Pummeling Style with your bonus feat. Assuming she's human, I'd take Power Attack and Combat Reflexes with my first feats. Take a level of Master of Many Styles Monk and grab Pummeling Charge. Take a second level of Master of Many Styles. Using your regular feat, take Dragon Style (Master of Many Style lets you use two styles at once), then use your pre-req-free bonus feat to take Pummeling Bully. The rest of your levels should be Brawler. At level 5, take Dragon Ferocity and Vicious Stomp (using your regular and bonus feat) and put all of your maneuver bonuses into Trip.
This gives you the ability to ignore terrain when charging, land a Pummeling Style kick at the end of it, you add double your Strength on your first attack and 1.5 times on the rest, plus, you get a free trip attempt and, if successful, one more unarmed strike on top of that. Pretty nasty combo.
Janni Style! (Moms) Roll damage on a charge twice!
Kensai 4! MAX damage with chosen weapon (unarmed)
Death from Above! +5 to attack on jumping charge (which Janni Style lets you do)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/death-from-above-combat
I'm... not sure death from above applies. You have to be charging an enemy from higher ground (which isn't jumping) or from above while flying (which also isn't jumping).
If you have frequent access to airwalk, it is a cinch to activate, but otherwise, not so much.
prototype00
In fact, I've fleshed out a build. Note that depending how the Kensai Perfect Strike (Ex) ability gets ruled, it can be very different. So some builds:
-------------
Straight Monk, level 6 (human)
Master of Many Styles, Qin Gong
1 F: Death from Above BF: Pummeling Style
2 BF: Pummeling Charge
3 F: Janni Style
4
5 F: Combat Style Master
6 BF: Janni Rush
Strength of 18
IUS: 1d8 + 4
Charge: 100ft
#attacks: Flurry 3 + 1 ki swift action
To hit: +4/+4/+4/+1 flurry, +5 DFAbove, +4 Str: +13/+13/+13/+10
Damage if all hit: 1d8 *2(janni) + 4 (str) * N(hits) = 8d8 + 16
max: 80, min 24.
No magical equip, no external boni added.
At level 8 you can start playing with Dragon Style.
-------------
Monk/Kensai
1 Kens F Death from Above Human: TWF
2 Kens
3 Kens F Janni Style ARC
4 Kens
5 MoMs F Pummeling Style BF Pummeling Charge
6 MoMs F Combat Style Master BF Janni Rush
Strength of 18
IUS: 1d8 + 4
Charge: 60ft
#attacks: 2 (TWF)
To hit: +2/+2 + 1 (wfocus kensai) + 5 DFAbove + 4 Str= +12/+12
Damage if all hit: 1d8 *2(janni) + 4 (str) * N(hits) = 4d8 + 8
Always max (precise strike): 40
With FrostBite cast, Magical Knack trait: 40 +1d6+6*2 = 52+2d6
Just to show Kensai possibilities. You can play around a lot with being a magus, with Arcanas for example.
IF your GM rules SPell Combat = Full Attack Action, Add an extra hit with max Unarmed damagex2 + spell you are casting.
As it proceeds it gets much better. Level 5 kensai yields another feat (ITWF), more spells and damage from them, more arcanas.
Alternative: At Kensai4/MoMS2 start going Warpriest for Flurry of Blows.
----------
Totally Unfleshed..just for reference
Maximum attacks, Level 7
- Warpriest (Sacred Fist, x)
- Monk (MoMS, 2)
- Magus (Kensai, 4)
1 Kensai FEAT: ?
2 Kensai
3 Kensai FEAT: Janni Style ARCANA:
4 Kensai
5 MoMS FEAT: Death from Above BONUS FEAT: Pummeling Style
6 MoMS BONUS FEAT: Pummeling Charge
7 Sacred Fist FEAT: ?
To hit on charge: +3 Bab, +1 Wfocus, +5 DFAbove: +9
Attacks: 2 Flurry:
I'm... not sure death from above applies. You have to be charging an enemy from higher ground (which isn't jumping) or from above while flying (which also isn't jumping).
If you have frequent access to airwalk, it is a cinch to activate, but otherwise, not so much.
prototype00
What is the point of jumping when charging then? Obstacles, flying enemies? If it's so, fair enough. Shame, such a fun feat that -could- have made Martials a little more flavourful at doing something maybe a little cool.
Anyways, this is the literal Flying Side Kick the OP requested.
A note on the Kensai's Perfect strike. It can be ruled that since Pummeling Style is one attack (ergo only 1 application of Sneak Attack would be applied for example) then Perfect Strike Works. If it is ruled that it does not work, then pick Ninja Scout instead and then Sneak Attack DOES apply per attack available. Win win.
Though at my table I'd rule that if you do Jump during a charge you get to benefit from Death From Above. You'll need to tell me how high and far you can/want to jump to see if you can make it though.
Death from Above is pretty explicit about it being from higher ground or while flying. You can jump from higher ground, but it doesn't automatically become higher ground just because you jumped. And yeah, jumping while charging is primarily to avoid obstacles/difficult terrain.
Kensai also won't work with unarmed strikes. Their chosen weapon is the single martial or exotic weapon that they get proficiency in, and unarmed strikes are neither of those things.
But Janni Rush is a pretty good find, though. I would say it's definitely stronger for the charge part, but Dragon Style/Ferocity is better overall, because you won't ALWAYS need to charge--some of the time you can just hit them normally.
....
But Janni Rush is a pretty good find, though. I would say it's definitely stronger for the charge part, but Dragon Style/Ferocity is better overall, because you won't ALWAYS need to charge--some of the time you can just hit them normally.
At level 8 MoMS you get to combine Pummeling, Janni and Dragon, as a free action (Combat Style Master), leaving some space for TWF feats if wanted.
I blotched up quite a few things in the build write ups. No flurry for MoMs sadly.