Technologist Feat "tax" vs Improvisation, Breadth of Experience, etc

[Topher Hughes]

I want to verify my understanding is correct -

The technologist feat lets you make skill checks against technology:

Quote:

Technologist

You are familiar with the basic mechanics of technology.

Benefit: You are considered to be trained in any skill used against a technology-based subject. If the skill in question requires training to use even against non-technological subjects, you must still have ranks in that skill in order to gain the benefit of Technologist.
Normal: You treat all skill checks made against technology as if they were untrained skill checks. This may mean that you cannot attempt certain skill checks, even if you possess ranks in the skill in question.

However, there are also several feats, class abilities, etc that will let you make unskilled checks - Breadth of Experience and Improvisation among them.

So, you don't have to take Technologist to make - for instance - knowledge skill checks against technology. You just need a way of making unskilled checks? Granted, you'll lose all the skill ranks in them without the feat, but you could still make them?

[That Crazy Alchemist]

Wow...I have no idea. It comes out and states that you are considered trained in those skills, then in the very next sentence tells you that you already need to be trained in them.
So this feat lets you, for the purposes of skills involving technology, be considered trained as long as you are already trained...Thanks Obama!

[Kolokotroni]

That Crazy Alchemist wrote:

Wow...I have no idea. It comes out and states that you are considered trained in those skills, then in the very next sentence tells you that you already need to be trained in them.

So this feat lets you, for the purposes of skills involving technology, be considered trained as long as you are already trained...Thanks Obama!

This is a thematic thing. Remember the technology guide is a setting product. In golarion, very few people know how to work with tech effectively. If your world is different you can ditch the feat entirely. It is meant to represent investment in learning about the stuff. It isnt meant to be balanced.

By normal rules, if you dont have this feat or something like it (Iron gods has some traits that offer a limited version of it) then if you are making knowledge checks, craft checks, or disable device checks against technology, throw your skill ranks out the window, and you can only do untrained uses of the skill.

If you take the feat, you no longer have this limitation, and your skills function normally with regards to tech.

[Cthulhudrew]

I think the key here is in the latter part of the Technologist feat description, under "normal". To wit:

Quote:

Normal: You treat all skill checks made against technology as if they were untrained skill checks. This may mean that you cannot attempt certain skill checks, even if you possess ranks in the skill in question.

So, even if you can normally make untrained skill checks, you cannot do so with checks against technology. Not unless you have the Technologist feat.

EDIT: As an example, without Technologist, you couldn't make an Appraise check against a technological device, regardless of whether you had skill ranks in it or not. You couldn't use Disable Device against a technological device even with this feat, unless you had ranks in the skill.

[Topher Hughes]

@Cthulhudrew - I think the word "may" there is key. If you can make an untrained skill check somehow, I think you can continue to do so - but you'll have to do that, even if you have skill ranks in a skill, unless you take the feat.

[That Crazy Alchemist]

Oh gotcha that makes way more sense then how I read it lol. I missed the bit about being untrained even if you were trained. And this feat makes you trained only if you are trained already but still untrained if you were already untr....my head hurts..

[James Jacobs]

Magic is capable of all sorts of magic stuff. Allowing more access to the things "locked" by the Technologist feat is a fine thing for those spells to allow. The primary in-game purpose of Technologist is, after all, simply to explain why technological information isn't more widespread in the setting.

In fact, if you're comfortable with technology lore being more pervasive in your game, feel free to give out Technologist as a free feat to anyone it makes sense to have.

[Claxon]

As a GM who is running Iron Gods, I would say no.

While Breadth of Experience says:

Quote:

Breadth of Experience

Although still young for your kind, you have a lifetime of knowledge and training.

Prerequisites: Dwarf, elf, or gnome; 100+ years old.

Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Knowledge and Profession skill checks, and can make checks with those skills untrained.

The fluff behind the feat is that you've lived a long time and had a lot of experience, relative to a human it seems. But the fluff behind technologist is that you've actually encountered technology and are familiar with it. I think technology is so rare (cannonically) that other feats that would normally allow you to make the check untrained don't apply here, because you haven't experienced it before.

[That Crazy Alchemist]

James Jacobs wrote:

Magic is capable of all sorts of magic stuff. Allowing more access to the things "locked" by the Technologist feat is a fine thing for those spells to allow. The primary in-game purpose of Technologist is, after all, simply to explain why technological information isn't more widespread in the setting.

In fact, if you're comfortable with technology lore being more pervasive in your game, feel free to give out Technologist as a free feat to anyone it makes sense to have.

Since it's meant to be so "fluffy" it seems to me like it would make for a pretty good Trait rather than Feat.

[Topher Hughes]

Thanks James - I think that was exactly what I was trying to understand.

[Malwing]

James Jacobs wrote:

In fact, if you're comfortable with technology lore being more pervasive in your game, feel free to give out Technologist as a free feat to anyone it makes sense to have.

That's what I'm doing. In a primarily fantasy world the feat makes sense and I think it is worded to not allow the above loopholes but I figured that in a setting where technology is as frequent as magic then everyone should get the feat for free.

I do have another question in the same subject: Would it be fair to make technological items 10% of their original cost in situations where the Technologist feat is free? I assumed so because that's the rules on guns.

[James Jacobs]

That Crazy Alchemist wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Magic is capable of all sorts of magic stuff. Allowing more access to the things "locked" by the Technologist feat is a fine thing for those spells to allow. The primary in-game purpose of Technologist is, after all, simply to explain why technological information isn't more widespread in the setting.

In fact, if you're comfortable with technology lore being more pervasive in your game, feel free to give out Technologist as a free feat to anyone it makes sense to have.

Since it's meant to be so "fluffy" it seems to me like it would make for a pretty good Trait rather than Feat.

Nope.

Traits are pretty much for PCs only.

This has to be a feat, so that NPCs can have equal access to it. Further, it also needs to be a feat to serve as a prerequisite for the Craft Technology feats.

[James Jacobs]

Malwing wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

In fact, if you're comfortable with technology lore being more pervasive in your game, feel free to give out Technologist as a free feat to anyone it makes sense to have.

That's what I'm doing. In a primarily fantasy world the feat makes sense and I think it is worded to not allow the above loopholes but I figured that in a setting where technology is as frequent as magic then everyone should get the feat for free.

I do have another question in the same subject: Would it be fair to make technological items 10% of their original cost in situations where the Technologist feat is free? I assumed so because that's the rules on guns.

No. The technological items are priced out according to the same metrics as magic items. They cost what they cost because that's what they'd cost if they did the exact same thing as a magic item. If you reduce their cost, then suddenly you have a VERY high powered game, akin to what you'd get if you reduced all magic item costs to 10%.

Guns are NOT priced out as if they were magic items, which is maybe a mistake, but it is what it is.

[Claxon]

That Crazy Alchemist wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

Magic is capable of all sorts of magic stuff. Allowing more access to the things "locked" by the Technologist feat is a fine thing for those spells to allow. The primary in-game purpose of Technologist is, after all, simply to explain why technological information isn't more widespread in the setting.

In fact, if you're comfortable with technology lore being more pervasive in your game, feel free to give out Technologist as a free feat to anyone it makes sense to have.

Since it's meant to be so "fluffy" it seems to me like it would make for a pretty good Trait rather than Feat.

I agree with James, it should remain a feat based on game design principles that already exist. If this is a problem for you or if your game setting is one that is high technology (as opposed to the very rare technology setting of Golarion) you may consider giving everyone this feat for free.

And I also definitely agree on not reducing price. The tech items have effects that are pretty much the same as magic items, and a priced very similarly. Don't reduce the price.