Impact of Advanced Class Guide on Organized Play

[Bronco Libre]

I'm curious about other peoples experience with how the Advanced Class Guide has changed your local scene for Pathfinder Society. Although I really like some of the new classes, I am starting to wonder if dropping so much new legal material on us all at once was a bad move.

It could be partly that the new school year started around the same time, but it's been way more difficult to get people to fill GM slots at the local venues here lately. Is this partly due to GMs not feeling comfortable running games with so many characters that have a ton of new rules associated with them, or is it just that everyone has more on their plate now?

[waltero]

Haven't seen to many popping up around here. People are still digesting it. A few bloodragers - those may be easier to jump into - but that's about it. Some hunters are bandied about but I haven't seen them.

Oh, I did see a Swashbuckler at a con recently.

[TriOmegaZero]

I haven't seen a huge change in play yet. Maybe once characters start to spin up in levels. But I doubt it will be much different than the APG/UC/UM in terms of changing the playing field.

[JohnF]

I've got a warpriest and a brawler. I've seen a couple of other warpriests, an investigator, and a hunter. My wife has an arcanist.

[Jiggy]

I recall seeing one swashbuckler, and I've got a bloodrager. I can't speak for all the classes, but until my bloodrager hits 4th he's basically a barbarian with a smaller hit die. So, not exactly shaking up the local environment, you know?

[Bronco Libre]

It could be a regional anomaly, but I have GMed for a lot of ACG characters here... upwards of 3 in a single party here, and that was playing in a 5-9 scenario.

[DrParty06]

I GM regularly for a Swashbuckler and a Shield Champion Brawler in PFS. I'm playing a part Brawler in a home game with a Shaman and an Inspired Blade Swashbuckler in the party. I also have Hunter (Divine Hunter) and Inspired Blade/Magus PFS characters, though I haven't played them much yet.

[roysier]

I ran a player who had a level 5 Investigator through 5-22 Scars of the 3rd Crusade, and with him in the mix they smashed that scenario, I don't think that scneario was written for a 1 to 5 whose average Diplomacy roll was in the 30's.

[Nimrandir]

The only ACG character I have is an investigator (I decided to take a different tack after getting two rogues killed), although my fighter would probably have been a brawler had the class been available then.

I've played at tables with a pair of warpriests, a slayer, and an investigator/bloodrager. I don't think I have run into any of the other classes yet.

[Galnörag]

Bronco Libre wrote:

I'm curious about other peoples experience with how the Advanced Class Guide has changed your local scene for Pathfinder Society. Although I really like some of the new classes, I am starting to wonder if dropping so much new legal material on us all at once was a bad move.

It could be partly that the new school year started around the same time, but it's been way more difficult to get people to fill GM slots at the local venues here lately. Is this partly due to GMs not feeling comfortable running games with so many characters that have a ton of new rules associated with them, or is it just that everyone has more on their plate now?

So I primary GM and I haven't seen a lot of it yet, but I also don't think a lot of material has been dropped. It has actually been gracefully introduced in two waves. The first being the play test delivering the classes, and the second wave the book release giving us archetypes and some rebuilds of the existing players (okay the advanced class origins is sort of a little more on top.)

[Plerumque]

I have a Swashbuckler and an Investigator, which I made after getting tired of failing skill checks. I've mostly seen people playing Slayers, Swashbucklers, and Bloodragers.

[Viskous]

Lots and lots of new acg classes in Sacramento.

[Curaigh]

Most of those I have seen were in the playtest so it has not been a huge jump yet. Kitsune got a bump in August, but that is unrelated. :)

Steven Schopmeyer wrote:

I haven't seen a huge change in play yet. Maybe once characters start to spin up in levels. But I doubt it will be much different than the APG/UC/UM in terms of changing the playing field.

APG: six new classes.

UC: one new class, two alternate classes.
UM: one new class.
ACG: 10 new classes, each with new mechanics. I expect a bigger change in the playing field, but fortunately I think everyone is digesting options stil.

[TriOmegaZero]

If classes were the only thing introduced in each of those, I might agree with your assessment.

[Nefreet]

Bronco Libre wrote:

I am starting to wonder if dropping so much new legal material on us all at once was a bad move.

These classes have been out for almost a year now.

[Acedio]

Eh, most of the problems I've seen involve the archetypes. It doesn't look like they edited those very well (sacred fist, witch doctor shaman + life spirit)

[DM Beckett]

Pretty much the only issues I've encountered have either been with the changes from the Playtest or just how poorly the final product was edited, and not really a problem with PFS. It is a problem in that the expectation in PFS is no/minimum table variation, but again, that's a problem with the quality of he product rather than PFS really.

Warpriests are pretty common. More than a few are seriously talking about using the Sacred Fist as a total replacement for the Monk. Bloodragers are probably second, and the ability to utilize some great wands at level one, even if they can't cast yet is pretty dang amazing once people realize it.

Other than that, I have seen one Hunter (or maybe Slayer), one Investigator, and one Brawler. The Investigator, last I heard, had been pretty bumbed with how it actually played (was pretty useless the entire game). Not sure about the Brawler, and I haven't actually seen the Hunter/Slayer character (not player) come back even though he's in my weekly home game. He might have been rebuilt out.

For the most part, they have been out and in play for a while now, and that's been great. Outside of the above, really, I can't really think of any issues. It's a whole heap more info to keep track of. It's, and from someone that still loves that aspect of 3.5, it's really starting to be a lot of bloat. But still, it is what it is, and in some cases has been pretty fun.

[BigNorseWolf]

I think you're going to see a lot more dipping with the martials. Instead of "I'm a swashbuckler" you're going to see "mostly barbarian with some blood rager and a little investigator and that one level of brawler and...."

[BartonOliver]

I've played at tables with nothing but ACG classes locally. I think there are 4 swashbucklers running around here, a couple arcanists, two brawlers (1 shield champion), a bloodrager, a couple hunters a cavalier that dipped a hunter (feral), a couple slayers among others. We've had some trouble getting GM's but I think that's less the ACG drop and more the time of year and people being busy.

[Artanthos]

Walter Helgason wrote:

Haven't seen to many popping up around here. People are still digesting it. A few bloodragers - those may be easier to jump into - but that's about it. Some hunters are bandied about but I haven't seen them.

Oh, I did see a Swashbuckler at a con recently.

I have a 2nd level gnome investigator. Not many opportunities to play so far.

[Silbeg]

Jiggy wrote:

I recall seeing one swashbuckler, and I've got a bloodrager. I can't speak for all the classes, but until my bloodrager hits 4th he's basically a barbarian with a smaller hit die. So, not exactly shaking up the local environment, you know?

Don't you still have your arcanist? I know of a couple of war priests (mine included), a couple of brawlers, and at least one Slayer (other than the one I just started in a PBP). RDN's swashbuckler seemed pretty efficient at Gen Con!

Still, not a ton of use that I have seen, probably because not everyone has the books yet.

[David Neilson]

Seen a few different classes show up. None of the casting heavy ones yet though.

[Imbicatus]

I've seen one investigator at level 2 and one shaman that was being played as more witch than shaman. And one of the regular GMs is playing a hunter in a home game. I haven't gotten to my warpriest yet, and that's it other than people trying out the iconics.

[N N 959]

DM Beckett wrote:

The Investigator, last I heard, had been pretty bumbed with how it actually played (was pretty useless the entire game).

I have two Investigators. I built them before the archetypes were out. One is all INT and the other is well-balanced. One is level 3 and other is level 2.

From my experience, the straight-up Investigator is a recipe for failure. The problem with the class is that it can't do what the name implies if you don't go with a specific archetype and pay close attention to how you expect to operate. It is all to easy to make a character that is simply unfun. Why?

1. Terrible combat options. Studied Strike comes on way too late and too slow to be of any use at low levels. Weapon proficiencies are in 1d6 weapons. You get proficiency in the hand crossbow...to what end? And while doing things like using Enlarge Person with Shield to give yourself some semblance of combat prowess may work...it works for one encounter because you simply lack the extracts per day.

2. Pathetic "spell" options. The class gets extracts which only work on yourself. This is extremely limiting. What's more is that they even though they can be prepared with only one minute prep time. This still eliminates any hope of having combat versatility. So you're either hoping the 1 or 2 combat extracts you prepare in advance are helpful, or you forgo limited combat value to hopefully provide some out of combat versatility.

3. Too many class skills. This may sound funny, but it goes back to what I said early. Because there are so many class skills, it's too easy to get tricked into trying to boost them all. This results in a kind of feedback look of failure in that the class really needs to pump INT and that means all your non-INT skills are weak. Really weak.

4. You really have to learn to Take 10. The real place the Investigator shines is in the use of trained skills for which you have a high mod, you Take 10, then use your Inspiration. But most people don't like to Take 10, so they roll and 1d20 + 8 + 1d6, is usually not going to get much done when you roll a 5.

5. Crafting. This is the area where Investigators can make up for lost ground. But this is tedious as hell. I bought the Alchemy Manual, but it's not really fun to go through every alchemical tool/weapon/reagent to try and find things that are useful

6. Poison. LOL! Poison Lore/use should be an investigator's ace in the hole. But the apparently the Poison Lore skill is nearly worthless as the only poison you can neutralize is poison that hasn't been administered (FYI you can just wipe the poison off a trap/blade). The bang for buck for Poison Use (even when you're crafting at 1/3 cost) makes Gunslingers feel like they are getting paid to shoot bullets.

As I said, I've got two of these and I'm enjoying them. But the class is seriously underpowered. I've played with a couple and they are totally underwhelming. The class just completely lacks punch, imo/ime. Unless some for good builds are devised, I fear that the Investigator will simply be a popular dip class for skill monkeys or k (strong) wizards.

[Disk Elemental]

For characters that aren't mine, I've seen two bloodragers, two hunters, a brawler, an investigator, and five or six swashbucklers. Although, I'm pretty sure that last is my fault, because I mentioned how awesome swashbucklers were a few too many times.

[Mekkis]

The biggest change that the ACG has done is made it impossible for someone who doesn't devote hours per week into study to know all the rules. Whether this is a bad thing or not is still up in the air...

[Jiggy]

Silbeg wrote:

Don't you still have your arcanist?

I made him fresh for The Confirmation, then stole the concept for use in a Mummy's Mask campaign (where he promptly died in the first session) and rebuilt the PFS slot into something else.

[Andrew Christian]

Silbeg wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

I recall seeing one swashbuckler, and I've got a bloodrager. I can't speak for all the classes, but until my bloodrager hits 4th he's basically a barbarian with a smaller hit die. So, not exactly shaking up the local environment, you know?

Don't you still have your arcanist? I know of a couple of war priests (mine included), a couple of brawlers, and at least one Slayer (other than the one I just started in a PBP). RDN's swashbuckler seemed pretty efficient at Gen Con!

Still, not a ton of use that I have seen, probably because not everyone has the books yet.

Yeah, I've got a slayer, but have mostly played her on Thursday nights, so Jiggy likely hasn't seen her. She started January last year, and is now 9th level. Survived Bonekeep 3 at Gen Con.

I also have a new Bloodrager/Brawler I'm playing through Emerald Spire.

[Acedio]

N N 959 wrote:

stuff

Well I hope you wind up having more fun with them as they get closer to retirement. It's kind of a bummer having a character you don't like. Have you looked at dipping in other classes?

[Ferious Thune]

I don't think there's been any major change because of the classes themselves. As was pointed out upthread, they've been around for a while now. I'm still not comfortable with the mechanics on the classes I haven't created yet, but that's true of some of the core classes, too.

I think the bigger impact will be from archetypes and from the additional material. I know there are a few spells that will eventually be showing up regularly and have an impact.

I'm enjoying my investigator. He was GM/AP credit up to 4th level. He's 6th now. He's been fantastic at skills since I started playing him, and the changes to studied combat mean in just starting to figure out how to make him effective in combat. Plus, I finally found a character that dipping into Sleepless Detective makes sense for. +Int to Perception, Sense Motive, and Diplomacy (to gather information) on top of Inspiration make for some very high rolls. On top of all that, it gets him a d6 sneak attack for some extra punch in combat. I'll go back to Investigator from here on out.

[Vahanian 89]

I've seen a warpriest, a couple bloodragers, one swashbuckler, a skald and my girlfriends slayer. I made a hunter but he only has GM credit. Most people in my area havent jumped to heavily into the new book yet so there hasnt been a huge impact or even a small one really.

[Muser]

A bunch of protege ACG characters here in the Finnish southwest. Hard to judge what kind of impact the new material will have yet.

Playing my brawler has been super fun though. The class is a great fit when you have to adventure blind. Martial versatility is a good tool all in all.

[N N 959]

Acedio wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

stuff

Well I hope you wind up having more fun with them as they get closer to retirement. It's kind of a bummer having a character you don't like. Have you looked at dipping in other classes?

On the contrary, I enjoy both the characters. Just took me a few tweaks before level 2 to figure out how to make them work. My point was simply an acknowledgement of another player not liking their Investigator and my attempts to illustrate why that might be expected.

It's very easy to make an Investigator that is lackluster at low levels unless you love Aid Another and picture Indiana Jones/Sherlock Homes walking around with a longspear (which I don't).

[Serisan]

My Skald is 1 session shy of 4th level and I've played with only two other ACG characters: a Bloodrager and an Investigator, both of which were level 1. At the venues where I've been playing, people haven't really adopted the book's material or have played to other concepts.

[Z...D...]

I have 1 human swashbuckler, a human hunter and a tiefling crossblooded bloodrager. Other then that I have seen another swashbuckler a warpriest and another tiefling bloodrager.

[BigNorseWolf]

The investigatory druid looks like a good fit for pfs with its heavy skill focus.

[theshoveller]

Every new character was an ACG one around here as soon as the playtest dropped. Those characters are now hitting level 3-4. I play regularly with a Warpriest, Arcanist and Hunter. I know a local Wrath of the Righteous game where the majority are ACG characters. I don't have an ACG character myself, though my next character will probably be a Brawler.

[Prof. Wat Sun]

5th level Investigator here...

[Sammy T]

I think @redward and me are the only 2 people at our store, out of 4-5 tables, diving wholeheartedly into ACG classes:

@redward
Warpriest L7
Investigator L6
Arcanist L3

Me
Shaman L6
Bloodrager L2 (to play with the Arcanist)

I've also seen a Hunter and a warpriest once.

I'm guessing its probably a combination of factors:
A) folks are currently focusing on their current characters, which started before ACG was legal

B) since there are only a few guides out, some folks might be holding off until they know the class mechanics/builds

C) we recently made an effort to make sure people owned the material they built their characters with

[Zach Klopfleisch]

I've seen a couple Swashbucklers, a couple Slayers, a Hunter, a Warpriest an Investigator, a Bloodrager and a Bolt Ace Gunslinger.

My impression from GMing for and playing with the Investigator was that it didn't do anything an Alchemist couldn't do. Then again, I play a 20 Int Mindchemist and the other Alchemist I'm familiar with is a 24ish Int Chiurgeon, so my experience may be just a little biased. (Off topic: Two Weapon Fighting with Healing Bombs makes me grin like a goof every time. Even when I'm GMing and trying to create the feeling of danger.)

Actually, most of the classes and builds I've seen haven't really been all that revolutionary. Most of what I've seen has been stuff you could accomplish with a core or base class and enough system mastery. The classes I've seen aren't bringing extra power to the table. Though, like in the Investigator case, that might be because they're doing what a highly optimized PC can do, but with an easier or less extreme build.

The biggest impact I've seen from the APG have been feats and spells. Of course there's Slashing Grace, but Reckless Rage? Seriously? You looked at Barbarians and said "You know what these guys are missing? Power Attack advanced a step ahead of everyone else!" An alternative to PA when you have BAB 0, that would be cool. An extra 3 damage only for classes that have the Rage class feature seems a little gratuitous.

[Kyrie Ebonblade,]

Right now I've seen one hunter, one shaman and my own warpriest.

Simon Clarkson (soon to be Blackros) is my Warpriest and it's been a blast. I don't QUITE fit healer or tank but with the right gear (wands) I can do the latter pretty well during and after a fight, and the later is easy with the right party behind me.(I pretty much smished everything with a transmuter backing me in the Silvermount collection)

[thorin001]

Jiggy wrote:

I recall seeing one swashbuckler, and I've got a bloodrager. I can't speak for all the classes, but until my bloodrager hits 4th he's basically a barbarian with a smaller hit die. So, not exactly shaking up the local environment, you know?

Hardly surprising since the Bloodrager is really a Barbarian archetype.

[Game Master]

Richmond, Virginia has, for some reason, obtained a massive influx of shamans. I've seen literally every ACG class, but that's because I play very frequently. They aren't overwhelming tables or anything, but I'd say more than half of the lower-level tables include at least one.

[Serisan]

Shaman is awesomesauce and it's taken a while for people to figure it out. I bashed it initially too. Then I started reading it more carefully. Once you can Wandering Spirit for Lore and switch up Wizard spells every day, it gets...interesting. Until then, you just keep adding Cleric spells to the list and do whatever you feel like on the main Spirit.

[Anonymous Visitor 163 576]

I suspect the biggest impact will be no more monks, no more rogues.

[Muser]

There'll always be rogues and monks as long as the are newbies.

[Imbicatus]

There is still a design space for monks, even with sacred fist and brawler. Sohei, Martial Artist, Kata Master, Sensei, Tetori, and Zen Archer are all great archetypes that shine in the PFS level range. It's quite possible to make a single class monk that excels in PFS.

Rogues are still the weakest class in the game after the ACG, but they were before it too. It's possible to make one that is decent in combat and good with skills. You'll still see them because the people that play them either want a challenge, or they want the class box to say rogue regardless of how much better another class may be at being rogue like.

[David Bowles]

Monks you will see, rogues not so much.

[Jane "The Knife"]

??? I guess I just like poor PC types.

I have 4 PCs that are at least part Rogue...(20+total levels).

[David Bowles]

It's not that rogues can't do well. It's just that other classes do more well. I imagine you can have all your PCs with rogue levels and not deaths, it's just harder.