Would you allow a Doppleganger PC?
Here is the Doppleganger from the PFSRD
Here is one from D&D tools
Now, I did a ARG point build with this and got close to 48 points in total. Which is an insane amount to be sure. I dropped Natural Armor to +2 and dropped the Bluff and Disguise race bonuses and got closer to 37 points. Now this is still a very high number, but at least in the ballpark of informed building. Race Point builds at 30 gain a +3 in levels 1-5 and this reduces are 6-10 and again at 11-15 and finally gone by 16.
Of course we then need to look at HD, both having 4 HD I think it would be safe to say.. 4 levels of HD, since the Race builder does not give information on HD this means it is not included. So by having 4 HD, I think it evens out. 4 levels of Doppleganger race before entering any class levels.
Aasimar in 3.5 had a +1 La, we do not use the LA in Pathfinder even if we had it as this is a powerful but standardized race. So +1 LA from what I have seen on other sites is mostly ignored unless caused by some powerful race trait.
Races like Goliath from what I have seen could potentially be played without needing an adjustment, though this can be argued due to their Powerful Build race trait.
Feral Gargun is pretty powerful with 2 RHD and +2 LA, for a race with +4 Con and Str, +2 Dex and a Hit to Cha and Int this is powerful and likely would remain a 3 or 4 leveled race, but I am curious of if people would let others play races like this?
Stonechild for example if we are sticking with Races of Stone for the moment, +8 to Str and +8 to Con +4 Natural Armor and a weak spell 3 times per day work 2 RHD and +4 LA? Seems inflated due to the high Ability Score modifiers right? What would you do if someone sat down and wanted to play one?
What do you folk say?
I would let a PC play it if he took a level adjustment equal to the CR, and I would make them use a normal array instead of rolling or buying stats.
So in a level 4 game, the doppelganger PC would be level 1.
Ask your GM.
If that where the case, either Stonechild and Doppleganger would be CR 3. Doppleganger has Mimicry and this is a powerful ability, the ability to fake mastery of magic and have knowledge of every weapon.
And what is a normal array. I would consider that all 12s
@OP
The magic part of mimicry might be trouble. Might require an additional level adjustment, or a big rock to rectify if it's too big of a problem.
I meant standard array (-2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3).
Oh I see, does everyone use those?
I would simply rebuild the monster in its entirety to a ~15 point race. The stat adjustments are only there to keep the creature competitive with high stat PCs and can be dropped for a +2 +2 -2 setup (or perhaps +2 +2 in this case). Almost every given ability on the list is unnecessary for the general 'flavour' of a doppleganger: really all you need is change shape and *maybe* the immunities, darkvision and detect thoughts.
Ok so your take on the 'Flavour' of a Doppleganger = simple shapeshifter
So do you see Kitsune as Doppleganger? Because I assure you Doppleganger are more then just shapeshifting abilities, they have a deep depth then that.
Also in PF Monstrous Humanoid automatically get Darkvision.
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I put together a 16 RP doppleganger for you:
Monstrous Humanoid (shapechanger): 3 RP, includes darkvision
Flexible stat array (+2 CHA, +2 WIS): 3 RP
At will detect thoughts, alter self: 8 RP
Elven immunities: 2 RP (remove the +2 vs enchantments and replace with immunity to charm... might be 3 RP but it's not super important)
That's more than enough.
An option for powerful races is to require the character's first X levels to be in NPC classes. That way, their hit dice, saves and skills scale appropriately with everyone else, but their racial abilities are accounted for. Think of it as 'multiclassing' race with class, where the racial abilities fill in for the lack of class abilities in the NPC levels.
A kitsune isn't a doppleganger: I don't know why you would even ask that. Clearly I understand you are talking about a specific monster or I would not have mentioned the specific doppleganger abilities.
Most of the extra abilities tacked on to monster races are superfluous. You do not need to keep the chaff: cut everything back to the core abilities of that race and then let the class levels fill in the rest.
Creating monster races is about knowing when to let go and what to keep to make the player 'feel' like that race. In the case of a doppleganger I think the ability to read minds, their immunities and, most importantly, their ability to shapeshift into specific creatures is what defines them. The ultra-high ability scores and natural armour are entirely unnecessary. The mimicry ability is nice but probably a bit much: removing it is not a big deal for a PC who has more options via class levels (it exists mostly so that a monster with no class levels has at least some subterfuge options). It really is the only sacrifice here.
*edit*
Oh and, I really really recommend avoiding level adjustment or forced NPC levels or anything similar. They didn't work well in 3.5 and they aren't part of pathfinder for a very good reason. The race builder exists as a tool to allow you to bypass these considerations via the rebuilding of a race framework at a lower race point total.
Seeing as you have such faith in the race builder.
How would you build an Illithid/Mind Flayer race
To the title: yes.
To the specifics: sure, but if you've more than one PC make sure they're either happy with the imbalance or have some reasonable (rough) equivalence.
I actually think the race builder is terrible, but it's better than stabbing in the dark when you are trying to explain race building mechanics. I mentioned it mostly because you did in your first post.
Some monsters aren't really built well for conversion into player races: you are never going to capture the mechanics and feel of a balor in a 1st level PC. Illithids are very difficult to build or price because most of their strength comes from a suite of powerful and unique abilities which are difficult to strip without removing the flavour. I would probably take the forgotten realms half-illithid template and dump everything out except tentacles, mind blast, extraction, darkvision and telepathy. I would encourage the player to play a psion if they want to continue to improve their psionic potential. I would probably give a stat array like -2 CON +2 INT +2 CHA or -2 STR -2 CON +4 INT +2 CHA. If the player wants to improve their mind blast up to 'monster' illithid power I would perhaps try to build feats similar to the aasimar feat line in order to enable this. This would still be an exceptionally powerful starting race and I would still be exceptionally wary unless the other players had similar races or powerful tools to work with at level one (if I was playing a planescape campaign, for example).
Yes but sometimes the flavor of the race is worth losing a level or two from the characters build. Some creatures simply cannot be played from level 1, although all the monsters I have listed, do have Monster Class progressions in books such as Races of Stone, Races of Destiny, Savage Species, ect.
My hand at Illithid
Abberation Type (Illithid Subtype) (3)
Medium Size(0)
Normal Speed (0)
Linguist (1)
Specialized Ability Score (1 Rp)
[+2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Str]
Grabbing Appendages (6 RP)
Mindblast (6 RP)[Custom]
Extract (4 RP)
[Custom]
Limited Telepathy (3) (See Lashunta)
Total 24 [+1 CR adjust]
Now if we include:
Natural Armor & Improved (3) +2 Natural Armor
Spell Resistance, Greater (3)
Amphibious (2 Rp)
Deepsight (2)
Total 34 [+2 CR adjust]
Of course if 3.5 is allowed
My hand at Illithid
Abberation Type (Illithid Subtype) (3)
Medium Size(0)
Normal Speed (0)
Linguist (1)
Specialized Ability Score (1 Rp)
[+2 Int, +2 Cha, -2 Str]
Static Bonus Feat (2)[Illithis Heritage]
Static Bonus Feat [Illithid Grapple) x4 [8]
Static Bonus Feat (2) [Illithid Blast]
Static Bonus Feat (2)[Wild Talent)
Static Bonus Feat (2)[Illithid Extraction]
Limited Telepathy (3) (See Lashunta)
Total 24 [+1 CR adjust]
Now if we include:
Natural Armor & Improved (3) +2 Natural Armor
Spell Resistance, Greater (3)
Amphibious (2 Rp)
Deepsight (2)
Total 34 [+2 CR adjust]
The Half-Illithid Template has a CR of 3, meaning three levels of being just a Half-Illithid. That could work but again it reduces levels of class down by 3, which is still usable of course.
This is my RP build of a Doppelganger
Monstrous Humanoid (3)
Normal Speed
Medium Size
Linguist (1)
Human Heritage (0)
Change Shape, Greater (6)
At-Will, Spell-Like Ability (4)
Elven Immunities (3 RP)[Immunity to Sleep and Charm]
Natural Armor & Improved (3) [+2 Natural Armor]
Total 20
Mimicry (Ex) (8)
Total 28
Mimicry is semi-important unless you have a class that lets you mimic other classes, if not using Factotum you are a little screwed out of the feel of a Doppelganger.
Would you introduce a Doppelganger into the party as a PC or possibly change a character to Doppelganger without telling them?
I would not allow any of the races you built in a standard-race game. 20 RP is just about the limit. If everyone is playing powerful races then sure, but I have been assuming an otherwise standard campaign so far as you haven't given us much information to work with.
Re doppleganger insertions: I would never change a character like that without their explicit consent. Ever. Messing around with PCs like they are your NPCs is asking for drama: you are taking away the one major aspect of agency a player has. A PC doppleganger is fine, and I have had 'hidden secret' PCs play a few times in my games.... but the big reveal has never once worked out. Other players usually just don't really care.
As an aside, at-will alter self is straight-up better than change shape, and costs less. Race builder is not the most consistent ruleset at times!
I see, well how about this.
Monstrous Humanoid (3 rp)
Medium (0 RP)
Linguist (1 RP)
Normal Speed (0 RP)
Spell-Like Ability, At-Will (4 RP)[Alter Self]
Spell-Like Ability, At-Will (4 RP)[Detect Thought]
Mimicry (4 RP)
[As Doppelganger]
Perfect Copy (2 RP)
[As Doppelganger]
Total 18
the reason for the low point buy for Mimicry and Perfect Copy is Perfect copy is similar to the Kitsune Realistic Likeness and costs as much as a static feat. Mimicry requires Alter Self so you have to pay a total of 6 points.
So am I the only one then who has ever used the Doppelganger Incursion?
The party splits up and after some times regroups with the intel they have gathered, or supplies. Do none of you use the Password idea?
