| 666bender |
after reading the GREAT reach cleric guide, that served a nice solution to the main cleric problem : action economy.
in a perfect condition, when you have 2-3 rounds to prepare a cleric can turn from a caster to melee monster, while taking care of his allies as well.
the other conclusion was a cleric need to melee at lower level and cast at higher.
the only issue i had with that guide, was that it was melee > caster.
while i agree a good cleric is a hybrid, he CAN be caster > melee.
so, how do i plan to action economy to my behalf? with a huge, yet paying invents.
double your actions with a good familiar.
the build, level by level is down, but the idea is to have a familiar early on - turning it to improve one ASAP. that with scribe scrolls (or scroll buying) and glory domain.
i keep no archetype cleric - as evangelist lost the cure that the parties need.
let's see the build:
level 1, human, glory & whatever domains.
25 point by : 14,14,14,10,14,14 (2 more to wisdom) . all lvl poisnts to wisdom .
trait for use magic device and fate's favor.
level 1 :
skill focus (human alternate) knowledge of choice
scribe scrolls
this is a somewhat weak level, the str aint much, the wis aint much, and the long spear aint doing much (1d8+3). one need to bare and look ahead.
level 3:
power attack.
damage is now not too bad. 1d8+6. spells are getting better. but still you arent #1.
level 5: eldritch heritage - arcane familiar - monkey.
now you have free reach spell on all your healing (valent archetype).
monkey has hands, so he can open scrolls and use them .
if you need to fight :
monkey cast bull's on you = +4 str.
you cast prayer = +2 to you,+1 to all -1 to enemy. (or divine favor...) and run in.
a friend fall ? you 5' back, cast heal, and the monkey run to deliver.
level 7: improve familiar
now your friend have invisibility, fly, UMD, high abilities and all he need to really be a tool.
level 8 : another free skill focus - why not.
level 9 : sacred summon for more actions OR quicken spell .
it's 2X actions of spells each round.
totally worth the heavy feat cast.
it's like reach & quicken on most spells!
| lemeres |
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I think that the reason why it was melee>caster is because one can still be a good caster with mediocre stats as long as you get the bare minimum to cast your spells (because spells are awesome), but mediocre melee stats means you are doing little to nothing (at least without using a ton of buffs that take time and resources while they could be applied to other party members, even if it is just your own animal companion if you took animal domain).
It also helps that a lot of cleric spells are things like buffs, summons, and healing. So they can easily be less reliant on things like DCs.
Also, wizards HAVE to be powerful to some extent, because without battlefield control, debuffs, and other things to act as deterrents, then they are going to get their bums handed to them by anything that gets close (at least with traditional wisdom). Clerics, on the otherhand, have armor, weapons, and a decent enough BAB that the words 'grapple check' still means that dice need to be rolled.
But onto the main thing of the thread- how about that fiendish vessel archetype for tieflings? While it is very obviously evil, but it only messes with with channeling and a single domain. In return, you get a free improved familiar at level 3. And two of the options are the ones that are favorites for this kind of things: Imps and Quasits. If nothing else, this method saves you on a bunch of feats.
| 666bender |
evil gets the nicest treats...
sadly there is no equal for an aasimar.
our group want hold an evil caster.
i agree with the analysis, yes think it work both way - a str of 14 is way enough for a cleric to be better than most melee .
take level 9 : with only 1 round of casting\self buff:
cleric cast divine favor (memorized 2-3 times a day that level) = +4\+4
little helper take out a cheap scroll of bulls' .
swift action - heroism .
the cleric weapon this level is +2 (or he will enchant it for +2...)
no magical gear.
to hit : 6 (bab) + 4 (str) -2 (power att) +2 (magic) +2(heroism)+4 (divine favor) = +16 \ +11
it's not fighter levels, but... it's "wasting" a cheap scroll and a first level spell.
this is as a full caster, with wis of 20 so DC are decent.
i find clerics that use too high str really powerful at low level and cry hard as levels grow and they see my cleric sending a barbarian to hell with plane shift.
ElyasRavenwood
|
Interesting character build.
While I have heard of Trunk Monkeys, I have never heard of a cleric's monkey familiar. I have put the OP character and my character side by side to compare our choices.
Here is the OP’s build
level 1, human, glory & whatever domains. 25 point by : 14,14,14,10,14,14 (2 more to wisdom) . all lvl poisnts to wisdom . trait for use magic device and fate's favor. level 1 : skill focus (human alternate) knowledge of choice scribe scrolls this is a somewhat weak level, the str aint much, the wis aint much, and the long spear aint doing much (1d8+3). one need to bare and look ahead.
Here is my current cleric character in a Carrion Crown game
Level 1, Aasimar, Cleric of Iomedae Domains: Sun & Glory. 20 point buy: Str: 14, Dex: 11, Con: 14, Int: 14, Wis: 14, Cha: 14. ( Racial adjustment: +2 Wis +2 Cha) Favored Class bonus: +1/2 bonus to damage channeling against undead. All leveling points will go to wisdom, perhaps one to dexterity. Traits: Sacred Conduit and Seeker (gives perception as class skill) Feat: Selective Channeling. Skills Diplomacy +8 Heal +8 (with healer’s kit) Knowledge Religeon: +6 Perception: +9 Damage: 1d8+2 with Long sword or morning star (gives me blunt piercing and slashing damage)
OP build
level 3: power attack.
My character:
Level 3
Feat choice: Improved Channel: +2 to DC of Channel EnergyNow Channel DC +1 level, +2 Cha, +2 cleric Domain, +1 Trait, +2 Feat=18
Channel Damage: 2d6+3 (Sun Domain) +1 (Favored class bonus)
OP Cleric
level 5: eldritch heritage - arcane familiar - monkey. now you have free reach spell on all your healing (valent archetype). monkey has hands, so he can open scrolls and use them . if you need to fight : monkey cast bull's on you = +4 str. you cast prayer = +2 to you,+1 to all -1 to enemy. (or divine favor...) and run in. a friend fall ? you 5' back, cast heal, and the monkey run to deliver.
My Character
Level 5:
Feat: Extra Channel.
Channel DC +2 level, +2 Cha, +2 cleric Domain, +1 Trait, +2 Feat=19
Channel Damage: 3d6+5 (Sun Domain) +2 (Favored class bonus)
OP Cleric
level 7: improve familiar now your friend have invisibility, fly, UMD, high abilities and all he need to really be a tool.
My Cleric
Level 7
Feat: Quick Channel
Channel DC +3 level, +2 Cha, +2 cleric Domain,+1 Trait, +2 Feat= 20
Channel Damage: 4d6+7 (Sun Domain) +3 (Favored class bonus)
While we are building our characters differently, I think it is interesting to compare them. I would have never thought to get a familiar for a cleric. Interesting.
Good luck with your character.
| 666bender |
nice build!
i would love to use channel more, sadly they are running our fast: )
especially as we play long fights - little rest adventures.
our DM allow resting, but when we rest and re group - so is the enemy...
so - scroll burning after fights is the best healing we got. channeling is supreme - but limited uses.
BTW - my azata companion, has int of 14, wis of 17 and cha of 20. with my ranks she is a beckon of diplomacy and perform. she scout, detect evil and magic, perform for crowds while i gather information and understand all spoken tongues.
in combat she is either the spell runner - fly in, deliver - fly out.
or my "quicken" free feat. i summon and buff the party while she buff me.
when the main fighter is almost dead - i push him a side - all buffed up and take his place.
also - commune spells are amazing on scrolls - when 2 are cast same round.
i only wish i also had room for spring attacks,
Magda Luckbender
|
There are other ways to give a cleric a spellcasting 'familiar'. Here's one that worked for me.
Start with, say, a neutral cleric of Horus (or Erastil, to be LG). Choose the Feather domain (any version of Animal domain works) to get an Animal Companion. Choose the Boon Companion feat (PFS legal) at 5th level. Put the AC's level 4 ability increase into INT, for INT 3. Spend 4000 gp on an a Headband of Intelligence +2, for the Animal Companion. Your Animal Companion now has INT 5. If your AC is, for instance, the misunderstood and underestimated axe beak, it also has 9+ WIS.
The 4th level cleric spell Imbue with Spell Ability requires INT 5. Cast your 4th level Imbue with Spell Ability on your AC. It will know two 1st level spells and one 2nd level spell. One ideal 2nd level spell, esp. for a battle cleric, is Bull's Strength. On Round 1 the cleric casts Divine Favor and the AC casts Bull's Strength. Same as if it were an improved familiar, but costs fewer feats and provides it with actual spellcasting. E.g. The AC can cast Divine Favor, a self spell, on itself! This all becomes possible at 7th level, the same level an Improved Familiar comes online. Unlike an Improved Familiar, an Animal Companion can be a powerful melee beast.
On the OPs original topic of 'Action Economy with a cleric, here are a few more tricks:
1. The above Axe Beak (works for many other critters, too) animal companion can, in combination with a reach-cleric style build, inflict over 100 HP per round on the side, without using the Cleric's standard action. While also casting divine spells. The AC becomes a sort of 'mini reach cleric' itself, with lots of synergy with its master. This works even at high levels, as the AC can get huge to hit and damage bonuses. This provides all the action economy benefits of riding a mount.
2. The OP dismissed the Evangelist Cleric because of reduced healing ability, but one can get around this limitation. An Evangelist must prepare healing spells, and can't convert them. With good planning this is not really a problem. They key is to prepare a couple good cure spells and also leave open spell slots. Your clerics do always leave open spell slots, right? Sure, for a single fight you only have access to prepared Cure spells, but you also have open spell slots (see Commandment V and IX), in case you use them and need more for the next fight. Scrolls can also eliminate this weakness. Raising the effective level of the entire party, via Inspire Courage, reduces total damage taken by the party, which reduces the need for healing.
3. It's possible to be a negative channeling Evangelist Cleric and still have solid positive channels. This is very useful, since a negative channel specialist will typically have a lot of channels per day. Evangelists have weak channels. A cleric of, say, Horus, has access to Variant Channeling (Rulership), which is not at all weak. Versatile channel lets a cleric channel both positive and negative, but one is weaker. Thus, a primary-negative versatile channeling evangelist loses about 2D6 positive channel energy. This means that such a channeler gets great benefit from a Phylactery of Positive Channeling, which adds +2D6 positive channel. Get such an item, and the negative channeling evangelist has about same positive channel power as a standard vanilla cleric. Of course, this is instead of a CHA headband, but I've found it's a worthy trade off. One can compensate for this by having the Imbued AC cast Eagle's Splendor on the cleric.
4. One trick to improve action economy is to use a lot of readied actions. For example, "I ready an action to attack the first for to come within reach". Use this when you will probably get an AoO, and you get two attacks against one foe. Another favorite is 'I ready an action to attack this foe from that square'. Then Move to that square (triggering your readied action) and keep moving. This is not as good as Spring Attack, since you are not immune to AoOs from the target, but it costs no feats. As you likely wield a reach weapon the foe usually will not get an AoO.
5. The Plant(Growth) subdomain is ideal for martial action economy. It's a swift action to activate. Used properly it can cause foes to routinely provoke AoOs where they otherwise would not. I just ran a 4th level martial cleric through an adventure where she got 8 AoOs and 5 regular attacks, inflicting a total of 180 HP damage. Without the Growth domain this same PC would have got only 2 or 3 AoOs in the entire adventure. In this case the Growth subdomain roughly doubled total melee damage.
ElyasRavenwood
|
The Azata companion looks useful.
I"m focusing on damaging the undead because I expect we will be running into plenty of Undead in the Carrion Crown adventure path.
Our party consists of
Elf Ranger (spell less)
Dwarf Fighter ( wields two axes)
Changeling Alchemist
Aasimar Paladin (Iomedae)
Aasimar Cleric (Iomedae)
Good luck.
The Imbue with spell ability looks cool as well.
| JuanAdriel |
Just an idea, as i'm not certain if it works.
If you get quick channel from ultimate magic, you will be able to channel as a move action, and cast a spell as a standard. It spends two uses of channel, but you action economy is nicely enhanced. You can debuff a lot in a starting round, if you have negative channeling.
| 666bender |
Why not become a diabloist with this build? Get an imp companion on top of what you have and gain augmented summons so that you can be a potent summoner on top of that?
its a great advice! if only it meant i am evil.... and evil arent welcomed as players in our group.
also - people tend to shoot imps on sight| 666bender |
Just an idea, as i'm not certain if it works.
If you get quick channel from ultimate magic, you will be able to channel as a move action, and cast a spell as a standard. It spends two uses of channel, but you action economy is nicely enhanced. You can debuff a lot in a starting round, if you have negative channeling.
nice idea, but channeling without selective channel is limited as it also heal the foe.
| 666bender |
There are other ways to give a cleric a spellcasting 'familiar'. Here's one that worked for me.
Start with, say, a neutral cleric of Horus (or Erastil, to be LG). Choose the Feather domain (any version of Animal domain works) to get an Animal Companion. Choose the Boon Companion feat (PFS legal) at 5th level. Put the AC's level 4 ability increase into INT, for INT 3. Spend 4000 gp on an a Headband of Intelligence +2, for the Animal Companion. Your Animal Companion now has INT 5. If your AC is, for instance, the misunderstood and underestimated axe beak, it also has 9+ WIS.
The 4th level cleric spell Imbue with Spell Ability requires INT 5. Cast your 4th level Imbue with Spell Ability on your AC. It will know two 1st level spells and one 2nd level spell. One ideal 2nd level spell, esp. for a battle cleric, is Bull's Strength. On Round 1 the cleric casts Divine Favor and the AC casts Bull's Strength. Same as if it were an improved familiar, but costs fewer feats and provides it with actual spellcasting. E.g. The AC can cast Divine Favor, a self spell, on itself! This all becomes possible at 7th level, the same level an Improved Familiar comes online. Unlike an Improved Familiar, an Animal Companion can be a powerful melee beast.
On the OPs original topic of 'Action Economy with a cleric, here are a few more tricks:
** spoiler omitted **...
sadly, imbue spell ability dont work on any of the spells you wrote here...
| Dave Justus |
Another favorite is 'I ready an action to attack this foe from that square'. Then Move to that square (triggering your readied action) and keep moving.
You can't actually do this.
From Ready an Action: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun."
| Renegadeshepherd |
Renegadeshepherd wrote:Why not become a diabloist with this build? Get an imp companion on top of what you have and gain augmented summons so that you can be a potent summoner on top of that?
its a great advice! if only it meant i am evil.... and evil arent welcomed as players in our group.
also - people tend to shoot imps on sight
You need not be evil, LN would suffice. And your imp while not able to go everywhere with you is able to go many places on his own. Invisibility helps and in dungeon crawls no cares about the imp in the room.
Magda Luckbender
|
Magda Luckbender wrote:Another favorite is 'I ready an action to attack this foe from that square'. Then Move to that square (triggering your readied action) and keep moving.You can't actually do this.
From Ready an Action: "The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun."
Thank you for the correction. I recently ran a rules thread on 'legal readied actions' and learned a lot.