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I'm actually going to have to take a step back from my MCA. I had called the Investigator/Magus in the last thread. Since then I had to make an unexpected move back to my hometown so things are a little up in the air for me at the moment, and I don't know how often I'll be able to post in the future. But keep up the good work guys, I'll keep lurking when I can. :)
Working tomorrow, + Halloween, blah blah, blah, plus been busy trying to get my new computer's audio to work. Any ways, hope to take a look at the new MCAs tomorrow, definitely Saturday (my time).
@Jon
Yeah, we're really trying not to double up as there is so many possible combos open to everyone. So are you going Inq/Sla instead of Inv/Sla then?
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@Elghinn
Well having taken a look at the Intuitive Combatant, there is actually quite a bit of difference between that idea and mine. More that MCA is Slayer/Investigator not Investigator/Slayer so there should be no reason that could not work.
The Inquisitor could allow for some benefit such as its Monster Lore and Detect Evil... which can be altered to detect "monsters" and other dangerous creatures or beings but perhaps have it be a upgrading 'level' ability. Stern Gaze can also be helpful as a Grimm Seeker would be an intimidating figure for all who know that they are. Spellcasting would likely be the big thing tossed if we go this route as I want the MCA to rely on its wits, skills, and combat ability not magic. Going for a figure that would be a badass normal as time goes on.
Yet I also feel an Investigator would be the better fit, for their greater skills, use of poisons, wit and intelligence being the traits getting them through dangers with support of strong combat ability when a fight is required. Inspiration being useful if altered a bit to be used as a insight into finding and fighting dangerous creatures often hidden from most.
Sighs, what do you think?
#Witch Slayer
Only comment I'll make tonight...
If you are planning on having a full cast mixed with a combat, why not start with the arcanist as primary. Plus, it's sort of weird to see a full arcane caster with 3/4 BAB. Why not go 3/4 casting? We have no 3/4 BAB full arcane casters any where. Just saying. I think if you went Slayer/Arcanist and went 1/2 caster OR Arcanist/Slayer and went 3/4 caster, we'd have a lot better working palette.
#Witch Slayer
Only comment I'll make tonight...If you are planning on having a full cast mixed with a combat, why not start with the arcanist as primary. Plus, it's sort of weird to see a full arcane caster with 3/4 BAB. Why not go 3/4 casting? We have no 3/4 BAB full arcane casters any where. Just saying. I think if you went Slayer/Arcanist and went 1/2 caster OR Arcanist/Slayer and went 3/4 caster, we'd have a lot better working palette.
the witchslayer can only use the first 4 levels for casting or learning spells. the rest are for counter spelling or possibly augmenting silver bullet.
full casting, as an wizard, but with arcanist spells per day. Can only cast and learn the first 4 level of spells from the sorc/wizard list. this replaces Swift Tracker, Slayer’s Advance, Quarry, improved Quarry, and Master Slayer.
the witchslayer can only use the first 4 levels for casting or learning spells. the rest are for counter spelling or possibly augmenting silver bullet.
I just understood - very slowly - what you mean. At 10th level it would gain two 5th level spell slots only usable for counterspelling, and more of the same at higher levels, following the arcanist spell slot table, but not the spells known table.
Honestly, I feel that you are trying to build a new system only for the sake of building a new system. Having less spell slots and more AR points would make it more elegant.And one more thing: the system you propose would max out the actual spellcasting abilities (that is, the slots 1-4) at level 10, and I dont really like that.
Full casting, as an wizard, but with arcanist spells per day. Can only cast and learn the first 4 level of spells from the sorc/wizard list. this replaces Swift Tracker, Slayer’s Advance, Quarry, improved Quarry, and Master Slayer.
OK, I get it now. Yeah, like Noro said, you need to make this within the established mechanics of the two classes.
So, he can only learn and cast arcanist spells up to 4th level (like a a Paladin/Ranger/Bloodrager - but gains them at increments like an arcanist), but can then use his higher level slots to counterspell enemy spells?
Pretty clunky. How about these options. Other aspects (weapons, armor) can be worked out later, as spellcasting and the ability to counterspell up to 9th level spells is really the crux of the whole MCA.
Here's a couple of more elegant options.
Why not keep full BAB and give him 1/2 casting. Then give him a new class feature that allows him to expend 2 points (1 point to counterspell, 1 point to to treat the expended spell as a spell slot twice the level of the expended slot? This way, he can spend a 1st level slot to counter a 2nd or lower (at 4th level), a 2nd to counter a 4th or lower (at 7th), etc., up to a 4th to counter an 8th level spell (at 13th). Then at 16th, he can expend 3 points to counter a 9th by expending a 4th level spell (double spell level +1). Or something like that. Especially if this is what you want as his primary ability. Also gains Greater Counterspell exploit at 10th or so.
Then we give him the full arcane reservoir. If you are going to use the reservoir to do your silver bullet damage.
Start with Arcanist as primary, and drop it to a 3/4 BAB, 3/4 Spells. The swap outs will be easier to determine.
Next, we inject studied target, and sneak attack straight into the build, no arcane reservoir point expenditure. We can also incorporate arcanist exploits, and allow the choice of slayer talents in their place.
Then, we can use the arcane reservoir to increase the counterspell effect by 1, 2, or 3 levels. Likely, as a greater exploit or new class feature. So at 10th, he can spend 2 arcane reservoir points, to counterspell (as the exploit) but with an effective counter spell level equal to the expended spell +1. At 13th this increases to +2, and to +3 at 16th. This way, if he also has the Greater Counterspell exploit, he could use a 6th level spell to counter a 9th level spell.
Also give it normal arcane reservoir.
To really know what options we have to work with Bandw2, I need to know specifically what class features you want from the Slayer, and what features you want from the Arcanist. Depending on what you are wanting from each class will determine whether its a full BAB + 1/2 caster or 3/4 BAB + 3/4 caster.
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#Grimm Seeker
Given what I had said above, I got an idea... but after doing I quick Google search I found that Bardess on Archetypes VII MCAs Forever, page 16 made a claim for an Investigator/Inquisitor MCA.
As such seems I will be sticking with what I have, either an Investigator/Slayer or Inquisitor/Slayer. Hmm
except, and this is what people seem to miss, he's supposed to GAIN AR from counterspelling (which is why he starts low, as counterspelling is powerful) and then using it for Silver Bullet or other Arcanist exploits.
The link for my thematic inspiration that i posted earlier, he is from a game with mana, and he drains mana to fuel his own powers. Instead, in pathfinder i imagine him counterspelling.
so basically he shouldn't be throwing oodles of AR to counterspell.
I kind of want to make Silver bullet do 1d8's but your spend a AR for every dice up to a max number of dice that is equal to normal sneak attack for your level, but I felt that was too complicated.
he's literally supposed to be someone who takes power away from spell casters and throws it back at them.
his balancing factor being poor action economy.
so basically however it turns out, counterspelling should make him more powerful, and Silver Bullet should be tied to this in some way. So maybe if the AR spending on counterspelling could also be used as some kind of back burn on the cast spell, causing damage to the caster either the same turn or the next via similar mechanics.
#Witch hunter
Then you need some kind of magic stealing effect which doesnt require magical resources. The sandman bard from APG comes to mind, except instead of performance it can be based on sneak attack or somesuch, and instead of gaining the spell it gives AR points
I know there's most certainly a rogue talent that is similar to this. with a little work, it could be the base for an anti-spell effect;
Stem the Flow: When making a successful sneak attack against a creature with the ability to channel energy, the rogue may forgo 3d6 points of sneak attack damage to instead prevent the target from channeling energy for a number of rounds equal to half her rogue level.
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I know there's most certainly a rogue talent that is similar to this. with a little work, it could be the base for an anti-spell effect;
Stem the Flow: When making a successful sneak attack against a creature with the ability to channel energy, the rogue may forgo 3d6 points of sneak attack damage to instead prevent the target from channeling energy for a number of rounds equal to half her rogue level.
I actually see this as a very simple and staight forward way of handling the idea wanted. This ability has my vote
except i REALLY do not want witchslayer to have sneak attack. which is why i changed it to silver bullet, and had it work similiar to how a barbarians superstition works but nerfed down from that and used for targeting.
Also, i don't find how he casts spells at all complicated. He learns as a wizard, but is incapable of learning spells higher than fourth level. he doesn't have a spell's known table like a sorc, he learns spells by finding/buying scrolls and such.
this is way less complicated than several paizo classes.
except i REALLY do not want witchslayer to have sneak attack. which is why i changed it to silver bullet, and had it work similiar to how a barbarians superstition works but nerfed down from that and used for targeting.
Also, i don't find how he casts spells at all complicated. He learns as a wizard, but is incapable of learning spells higher than fourth level. he doesn't have a spell's known table like a sorc, he learns spells by finding/buying scrolls and such.
this is way less complicated than several paizo classes.
You don't want sneak attack at all? That changes everything. Ignore what I just posted then. :D
As to casting, whether its less complicated or not, its WEIRD. Having a Full caster table but only using the slots above 4th to counter is strange.
Why not just give him an incremental ability in place of the normal sneak attack then, where he can counter a spell up to 1 level higher using his counterspell exploit, and increases this up to 5 levels, allowing him to counter up to 5th level spells with the Greater Counterspell exploit? Sat at 4/8/12/16/20 (or in the trap sense spot?). Either way he'd have to expend a 4th level spell slot, and 1 AR point to do it.
If the number of AR points available are worrisome, then we can make this ability cost more. Say expend 1 AR point for the counter spell effect +1 point per spell level above the expended spell required to counter the opponent spell. There would be a cap of course, live +1 level at 4th, up to +5 at 20th (or at whatever levels we put this at), which would then cost 1 AR point (Counterspell) + a 4th level spell slot + 5 AR points to counter a 9th level spell. So thats 6 AR points to stop a 9th level spell. Pretty fair since it balances with other uses of AR for other explits.
We give him a spell book, can learn up to 4th level spells, has a Full BAB, has a revised "Prepared Spells per Day" table (I'll pull that from my Spell Thief), and then we can incorporate your Silver bullets in too as a unique hardwired ability at 2nd or so, costing 1 AR point. And since Silver bullets and Counterspell will expend AR points (lots for higher level spells), we can still go with a normal AR total (3 + 1/2 level).
Let me do a work up of the above proposed build and then we can go from there. The tweaking should be in the exploits/abilities, not in how to use a full caster's spell table.
@Bandw2
I assume this is meant to be a "get in the caster's face, stop him from casting spells at you or others, and then take him out style of MCA? This is similar to my old Mage Slayer concept I was going to do for one of my later MCAs in a previous whatever my combo was, so I'm somewhat invested in seeing this work out well. Then I can scrap my old concept.
Alright got stuff to do!
eh, I never envisioned him as melee, because his inspiration was a ranged character.
though there's another character called Magebane which is melee, but he has a medium range teleport, and his ult does damage based on the amount of missing mana he has. Also, his auto attack stripped mana.
like I said though, I planed for him to gain AR from counterspelling, but what ever. he's meant to be a supporter from the rear in my eyes counterspelling and laying down high damage spikes against casters, while buffing from his wizard spell list or applying additional hurt with blaster emphasis.
the spell slots were also going to be useable by meta-magicing and any other abilities that want you to expend spell slots.
@Bandw2: May I just have a look beyond the rules and see what they would mean? I know spell slots are notoriusly hard to flavorize, but still I need to do that.
The MCA starts with an amount of magic energy, usable only for counterspelling, nothing else.
This brings up question no 1: why would you simulate this energy with spell slots, if there are no actual spells? Spell slots are just not good for anything else but simulating spells
But going on, what happens next: enemy spell comes, you neutralize it, and gain another amount of magic energy, this one usable for other things.
Summary: you transformed one kind of raw magic energy to another kind of raw magic energy, with the enemy spell as a catalysator. Do you see now why it looks weird? You could perhaps theorize that negative spell energy got transformed to positive spell energy, but I never heard about "negative magic".
What would make sense, to me, is this: you have no spell energy to start with, enemy spell comes in, you negate it, draw it in, and you gain spell energy. But with this one, you dont need to simulate the nothing at the beginning, because there is nothing there :) If you want a limit, just say that it can generate X AP per day from enemy spells
@Witch Slayer
How about renaming it Mage Slayer or Magic Slayer?
Swaps
Track = Arcane reservoir
Slayers talent (4th) = Counterspell
Slayers talent (10th) = Greater counterspell
Sneak attack +1d6 = Arcane assault (+2d6 to +6d6)
Swift tracker/2nd studied target/5th studied target/Slayer talent (16th) = 1/2 spellcasting
Sneak attack +2d6 to +6d6 = Enhance counterspell (+1 to +5)
Master slayer = Master counterspell
Primary Class: Slayer.
Secondary Class: Arcanist.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The witch slayer selects three arcanist skills to add to his class skills, in addition to the normal slayer class skills. The witch slayer gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The witch slayer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Arcane Reservoir (Su): At 1s level, a witch slayer gains the arcanist’s arcane reservoir ability. This ability replaces track.
Slayer Talent: This is exactly like the slayer ability of the same name, except that the witch slayer gains a slayer talent at 2nd level and every three levels thereafter. Whenever the witch slayer could choose a slayer talent, he can select an arcanist exploit that he qualifies for instead.
In addition, the witch slayer can choose from the following new exploits restricted t the Witch Slayer multiclass archetype.
Consume Spells (Su): The witch slayer gains the arcanist’s consume spells ability.
Track (Ex): As long as the witch slayer has at least 1 point in his arcane reservoir, he gains the slayer’s track ability.
Arcane Assault (Su): At 3rd level, whenever a witch slayer uses his studied target ability against a spellcaster (including arcane and divine spellcasters, or creatures with spell-like abilities), he can spend 1 point from his arcane reservoir to make a single melee or ranged attack as a standard action. If the attack hits, the witch slayer deals extra damage. This additional damage is 1d6 at 3rd level, and increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter. Should the slayer score a critical hit with an arcane assault attack, this additional damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as arcane assault attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. This damage is precision damage. Any creature immune to precision damage is likewise immune to this ability.
At 5th level, the witch slayer’s weapon is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction when the attack is made. At 9th, it is treated as cold iron and silver. At 17th level, it is treated as adamantine.
In addition, the witch slayer is also treated as having the Disruptive combat feat until the start of his next turn once the attack is made. This ability replaces sneak attack +1d6.
Counterspell (Su): At 4th level, a witch slayer gains the arcanist’s counterspell exploit. This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 4th level.
Spellcasting: Beginning at 4th level, a witch slayer gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells, which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A witch slayer must choose and prepare his spells in advance.
A witch slayer must prepare her spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, her spells are not expended when they're cast. Instead, she can cast any spell that she has prepared consuming a spell slot of the appropriate level, assuming she hasn't yet used up her spell slots per day for that level.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the witch slayer must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The saving throw DC against a witch slayer's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the witch slayer's Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a witch slayer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Witch slayer under “Spells per Day”. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
A witch slayer may know any number of spells, but the number she can prepare each day is limited. At 4th level, she can prepare two 1st-level spells each day. At each new witch slayer level, the number of spells she can prepare each day increases, adding new spell levels as indicated on Table: Witch slayer Spells Prepared. Unlike the number of spells she can cast per day, the number of spells a witch slayer can prepare each day is not affected by her Intelligence score. Feats and other effects that modify the number of spells known by a spellcaster instead affect the number of spells a witch slayer can prepare.
A witch slayer must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the witch slayer decides what spells to prepare and refreshes her available spell slots for the day.
Like a sorcerer, a witch slayer can choose to apply any metamagic feats she knows to a prepared spell as she casts it, with the same increase in casting time (see Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats). However, she may also prepare a spell with any metamagic feats she knows and cast it without increasing casting time like a wizard. She cannot combine these options—a spell prepared with metamagic feats cannot be further modified with another metamagic feat at the time of casting (unless she has the metamixing arcanist exploit). Through 3rd level, a witch slayer has no caster level, At 4th level and higher, a witch slayer has a caster level equal to her witch slayer level –3 (minimum 1). This ability replaces swift tracker, 2nd studied target , 4th studied target, and the slayer talent gained at 16th level.
Enhance Counterspell (Su): At 6th level, a witch slayer can expend 1 additional point from his arcane reservoir as part of his counterspell ability to counter a spell one level higher than the level of the spell expended. For example, if a witch slayer wants to counter a 2nd level spell, he must spend 1 point from his arcane reservoir and expend a spell of 3rd level or higher. If the witch slayer chooses to enhance his counterspell by expending an additional point from his arcane reservoir, he can counter a 3rd level spell instead of a 2nd level spell.
At 9th level, and every three levels thereafter, the level of spell a witch slayer can counter when using his counterspell ability increases by 1, up to a maximum of 5 at 18th level. The witch slayer must expend a number of additional points from his arcane reservoir equal to increase in spell level he is attempting to counter. Thus, an 18th level witch slayer must expend 1 point from his arcane reservoir to use greater counterspell, expend a 4th–level spell, and spend 5 additional points from his arcane reservoir to increase the equivalent spell level by 5 to counter a 9th–level spell.
This ability replaces sneak attack +2d6 to +6d6.
Greater Counterspell (Su): At 10th level, a witch slayer gains the arcanist’s greater counterspell greater exploit. This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 10th level.
Advanced Talents: This is exactly like the slayer ability of the same name, except that the witch slayer gains this ability at 11th level. In addition, whenever the witch slayer could choose an advanced talent in place of a slayer talent, he can select a greater exploit that he qualifies for instead.
Master Counterspell (Su): At 20th level, a witch slayer becomes a master at counterspelling. Whenever the witch slayer successfully counters a spell using her counterspell ability, he does not need to expend his initial point from his arcane reservoir. In addition, the number of additional points he must spend from his arcane reservoir to use his enhance counterspell ability is halved (minimum 1, rounded up), Thus, he must expend 1 point to increase the effective spell level of the countering spell 1 or 2 levels, 2 points to increase it by 3 or 4 levels, and 3 points to increase it by 5 levels. This ability replaces master slayer.
Table: Witch/Mage/Magic Slayer
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 1st studied target, arcane reservoir — — — —
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Slayer talent — — — —
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Arcane assault — — — —
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Counterspell 1 — — —
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Slayer talent 1 — — —
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Enhance counterspell (+1) 1 — — —
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Stalker 1 1 — —
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 2nd studied target, slayer talent 1 1 — —
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Enhance counterspell (+2) 2 1 — —
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Greater counterspell 2 1 1 —
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Advanced talents, slayer talent 2 1 1 —
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Enhance counterspell (+3) 2 2 1 —
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Slayer’s advance 1/day 3 2 1 1
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Quarry, slayer talent 3 2 1 1
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Enhance counterspell (+4) 3 2 2 1
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 3rd studied target 3 3 2 1
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Slayer talent, slayer’s advance 2/day 4 3 2 1
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Enhance counterspell (+5) 4 3 2 2
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Improved quarry 4 3 3 2
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Master counterspell, slayer talent 4 4 3 2
PS: Another option is to go the 3/4 BAB 3/4 caster route if you want it less combat and more spells/party buffer. would just need some tweaking, possibly changing it to Arcanist/Slayer instead. That may be more flavorful and to your liking for your concept.
no space in name please. Also, i like Witchslayer more than magicslayer or mageslayer, it rolls off the tongue easier.
he definitely isn't going to be a gain spells at level 4 kinda guy. so i guess 3/4 - 3/4.
i really don't like the idea of using large amounts of AR to coutnerspell though.
No space in name please. Also, I like Witchslayer more than magicslayer or mageslayer, it rolls off the tongue easier.Remember Elghinn requires two word names, also the problem with Witchslayer is that the MCA will not be just killing witches but be effect against all spellcasters... right?
There are exceptions to the whole two words rule, I'm sure. But commonly are a conjoining of two words into one, such as 'Beastbrewer', 'Ichormancer' and 'Gravewalker'.
Witchslayer could work, it does have a nice ring to it rather than Witch Slayer.
EDIT: Also, will the first batch of ACG MCAs be up on the wiki soon?
Sorry for the long gap between posts, I've been checking in, but haven't had a chance to check over. New job. New stuff. Life still kinda hectic. Will provide concepts when it's my turn on the docket, but haven't had the time to look over things and provide feedback. Sorry.
OK, here's the 3/4 BAB, 3/4 spell version of the Witchslayer. As much as it may sound good, it has nothing to do with slaying witches. just saying.
WITCHSLAYER
While some who follow the ways of science feel called towards the roles of alchemists and investigators, some feel compelled to practice medicine, surgery and first aid. Through rigorous studying of medical treatments, astute physicians are as capable as paladins in terms of their curative abilities, and can evaluate situations with a keen and practiced mind in many emergencies. Not to be underestimated in the heat of battle, the astute physician’s knowledge of anatomy and medicine can be a deadly tool when used offensively.
Primary Class: Arcanist.
Secondary Class: Slayer.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d8.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The witch slayer selects six slayer skills to add to her class skills, in addition to the normal arcanist class skills. The witchslayer gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The witchslayer is proficient with all simple and martial weapons. She is also proficient with light armor. She can cast sorcerer/wizard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a witchslayer wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass witchslayer still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Spellcasting: A witchslayer casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A witchslayer can only cast a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Witchslayer under “Spells per Day.” In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score. A witchslayer otherwise learns, prepares, and casts spell as an arcanist equal to her witchslayer level.
Counterspell (Su): At 1st level, a witchslayer gains the arcanist’s counterspell exploit. This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 1st level.
Track (Ex): At 1st level, a witchslayer gains the slayer’s track ability. This ability replaces consume spells.
Arcane Exploits: This is exactly like the arcanist ability of the same name. Whenever the witchslayer could choose an arcanist exploit, she can select a slayer talent that she qualifies for instead. In addition, the witchslayer can choose to gain the arcanist’s consume spells class feature as an exploit.
Studied Target (Ex): At 2nd level, a witchslayer gains the slayer’s studied target ability and can maintain its affects against only one target. At 10th and 18th level, he can maintain this ability against against one additional target at the same time.
Arcane Assault (Su): At 4th level, whenever a witchslayer uses his studied target ability against a spellcaster (including arcane and divine spellcasters, or creatures with spell-like abilities), he can spend 1 point from his arcane reservoir to make a single melee or ranged attack as a standard action. If the attack hits, the witchslayer deals extra damage. This additional damage is 1d6 at 4th level, and increases by 1d6 every 3 levels thereafter, to a maximum of +6d6 at 19th level. Should the slayer score a critical hit with an arcane assault attack, this additional damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as arcane assault attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. This damage is precision damage. Any creature immune to precision damage is likewise immune to this ability.
At 5th level, the witchslayer’s weapon is treated as magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction when the attack is made. At 9th, it is treated as cold iron and silver. At 17th level, it is treated as adamantine.
In addition, the witchslayer is also treated as having the Disruptive combat feat until the start of his next turn once the attack is made.
Enhance Counterspell (Su): At 6th level, a witchslayer can expend 1 additional point from her arcane reservoir as part of his counterspell ability to counter a spell one level higher than the level of the spell expended. For example, if a witchslayer wants to counter a 2nd level spell, she must spend 1 point from her arcane reservoir and expend a spell of 3rd level or higher. If the witchslayer chooses to enhance her counterspell by expending an additional point from his arcane reservoir, she can counter a 3rd level spell instead of a 2nd level spell.
For every six levels beyond 6th, the level of spell a witchslayer can counter when using his counterspell ability increases by 1, up to a maximum of 3 at 18th level. The witchslayer must expend a number of additional points from his arcane reservoir equal to the increase in spell level he is attempting to counter. Thus, an 18th level witchslayer must expend 1 point from his arcane reservoir to use greater counterspell, expend a 6th–level spell, and spend 3 additional points from his arcane reservoir to increase the equivalent spell level by 3 to counter a 9th–level spell.
Medium Armor (Ex): At 8th level, a witchslayer gains proficiency with medium armor. A witchslayer can cast sorcerer/wizard spells while wearing medium armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster, a witchslayer wearing heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component.
Greater Counterspell (Su): At 11th level, a witchslayer gains the arcanist’s greater counterspell greater exploit. This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 10th level.
Swift Tracker (Ex): At 12th level, a witchslayer gains the slayer’s swift tracker ability.
Quarry (Ex): At 14th level, a witchslayer gains the slayer’s quarry ability.
Slayer’s Advance (Ex): At 16th level, a witchslayer gains the slayer’s advance ability, but can only use this ability once per day.
Counterspell Supremacy (Su): At 20th level, a witchslayer becomes a master at counterspelling. Whenever the witchslayer successfully uses her counterspell ability, she does not need to expend her initial point from her arcane reservoir. She also gains a +4 bonus to all Spellcraft skill checks made to identify a spells as it is being cast.
Table: Witch Slayer
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 0th 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st +0 +2 +0 +2 Arcane reservoir, counterspell, cantrips, track 3 1 — — — — —
2nd +1 +3 +0 +3 1st studied target 4 2 — — — — —
3rd +2 +3 +1 +3 Arcane exploit 4 3 — — — — —
4th +3 +4 +1 +4 Arcane assault 4 3 1 — — — —
5th +3 +4 +1 +4 Arcanist exploit 4 4 2 — — — —
6th +4 +5 +2 +5 Enhance counterspell 5 4 3 — — — —
7th +5 +5 +2 +5 Arcanist exploit 5 4 3 1 — — —
8th +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Medium armor 5 4 4 2 — — —
9th +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Arcanist exploit 5 5 4 3 — — —
10th +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 2nd studied target 5 5 4 3 1 — —
11th +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 Greater counterspell, greater exploits 5 5 4 4 2 — —
12th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Swift tracker 5 5 5 4 3 — —
13th +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Arcanist exploit 5 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Quarry 5 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Arcanist exploit 5 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Slayer’s advance 5 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Arcanist exploit 5 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 3rd studied target 5 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Arcanist exploit 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Counterspell supremacy 5 5 5 5 5 5 5
Table: Witchslayer Spells Prepared
Class Spells Prepared
Level 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th
1st 2 — — — — —
2nd 3 — — — — —
3rd 4 — — — — —
4th 4 2 — — — —
5th 4 3 — — — —
6th 4 4 — — — —
7th 5 4 2 — — —
8th 5 4 3 — — —
9th 5 5 4 — — —
10th 5 5 4 2 — —
11th 6 5 4 3 — —
12th 6 6 5 4 — —
13th 6 6 5 4 2 —
14th 6 6 5 4 3 —
15th 6 6 6 5 4 —
16th 6 6 6 5 4 2
17th 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 5 4
19th 6 6 6 6 5 4
20th 6 6 6 6 5 5
And finally, here's my take on Jon's Grim Seeker (sorry, dropped the second "m". I went with a Sla/Inq combo.
The grim seeker is knowledgeable in monsters and beings often hidden from the rest of the world that quite often possess powers that make them dangerous or even deadly to any who interact with them. It is the duty of these hunters to seek out, even slay if necessary, such creatures in an effort to protect those who cannot defend themselves against such threats. However, grim seekers also understand that not all such creatures are a threat. While some simply wish to be left alone, others may be willing to aid the grim seeker in tracking down these dangerous creatures. Bargaining or even allying with these supernatural or magical creatures can often lead the seeker to finding and killing the true threats. Knowledgeable, skilled, and possessing the ability to perceive those that use glamers and other illusory magic to alter their appearance through natural or magical means, the grim seeker exemplifies the axiom of the hunter becoming the hunted.
Primary Class: Slayer.
Secondary Class: Inquisitor.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The grim seeker selects three investigator skills to add to his class skills, in addition to the normal slayer class skills. The grim seeker gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The grim seeker is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, plus the bastard sword, falcata, fauchard, flambard, hand crossbow, repeating crossbow (heavy), repeating crossbow, and tri-bladed katar. He is also proficient with one of the following racial weapons: dwarven double axe, dwarven longaxe, dwarven longhammer, dwarven maulaxe, dwarven urgosh, dwarven waraxe, elven curved blade, gnome hooked hammer, halfling sling-staff, minotaur double crossbow, orc double axe. The grim seeker is also proficient with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Monster Lore (Ex): At 2nd level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s monster lore ability. This ability and stern gaze replace the slayer talent gained at 2nd level.
Stern Gaze (Ex): At 2nd level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s stern gaze ability.
Slayer Talent: This is exactly like the slayer’s ability of the same name, except that the grim seeker gains a slayer talent at 4t level and every four levels thereafter. In addition, the grim seeker may choose from the following new talents restricted to the Grim Seeker multiclass archetype.
Solo Tactics (Ex): The grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s solo tactics class feature.
Teamwork Feat (Ex): The grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s team work feats ability. He may select this talent multiple times. Each time this talent is chosen, it applies to a different teamwork feat.
Vengeance (Su): The grim seeker is imbued with divine power and may select one of the following inquisitor’s judgments: Whenever the grim seeker uses his studied target ability, he gains the benefits of one of his judgments. He may select this talent once for every six grim seeker levels he possesses. Each time this talent is chosen, it applies to a different judgment. The grim seeker may only have one judgment active at a time.
Bane (Su): At 6th level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s bane ability, except that it can only be used against his studied target. This ability replaces stalker.
Discern Weakness (Ex): At 7th level, a grim seeker becomes an expert at locating the weak points of his studied target. The grim seeker rolls twice to confirm critical hits against a studied target and keeps the higher roll. This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 6th level.
Stalwart (Ex): At 10th level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s stalwart ability. This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 10th level.
Advanced Talents: This is exactly like the slayer’s ability of the same name, except that the grim seeker gains this ability at 12th level.
Greater Bane (Su): At 14th level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s greater bane ability, except that it can only be used against his studied target. This ability replaces slayer talent gained at 14th level.
Exploit Weakness (Su): At 18th level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s exploit weakness ability, except that it can only be used against his studied target. This ability replaces slayer talent gained at 18th level.
Table: Grim Seeker
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 1st studied target, track
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Monster lore, stern gaze
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Sneak attack +1d6
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Slayer talent
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 2nd second studied target
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Bane, sneak attack +2d6
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Discern weakness
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Slayer talent
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Sneak attack +3d6
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 3rd studied target, stalwart
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Swift tracker
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Advanced talents, slayer talent, sneak attack +4d6
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Slayer’s advance 1/day
14th +14/+8/+4 +9 +9 +4 Greater bane, quarry
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 4th studied target, sneak attack +5d6
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Slayer talent
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Slayer’s advance 1/day
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Exploit weakness, sneak attack +6d6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Improved quarry
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 5th studied target, master slayer, slayer talent
There are exceptions to the whole two words rule, I'm sure. But commonly are a conjoining of two words into one, such as 'Beastbrewer', 'Ichormancer' and 'Gravewalker'.
Yup!
Witchslayer could work, it does have a nice ring to it rather than Witch Slayer.
Still think we should find a more suitable name to fit the MCA. There is no witch-related anything with this MCA. Just my opinion.
EDIT: Also, will the first batch of ACG MCAs be up on the wiki soon?
When I get to it.
OK, here's the 3/4 BAB, 3/4 spell version of the Witchslayer. As much as it may sound good, it has nothing to do with slaying witches. just saying.
** spoiler omitted **...
Witchslayer has astute phys blurb. Looks good to me but you dont include what was traded out for each ability.
And finally, here's my take on Jon's Grim Seeker (sorry, dropped the second "m". I went with a Sla/Inq combo.
** spoiler omitted **...
Like it, seems balanced and holistic.
# Grim Seeker
I'm not that impressed conceptually by this - it feels a little like the Sanctified Slayer (which is an Inquisitor archetype that replaces Judgment with Studied Target.) I'd like to get more of feel for what JonathonWilder wants beyond alluding to other media concepts.
@Elghinn's version -
* Weapon Profs: Seems kind monster-huntery, but it might be just simpler to give them the Slayer's free for all...even as a nod to balancing the rest of the MCA...
* Slayer Talents:
- Solo Tactics and Teamwork Feat as separate Talents is a little hard on the Grim Seeker - the Inquisitor kinda gives both so that Solo Tactics actually works right away. Yes, the GS could choose a Teamwork feat outside of the class abilities, but still...
- Vengeance you omitted the Judgments available list... I'm torn on this ability - on the one hand I'd rather this be an auto-select, and earlier, on the other I'm worried about glomming it on Studied Target...especially as I notice that Studied Target's bonuses are untyped...
- seeing as Discern weakness and Stalwart replace two more choices I feel there is a little hampered Talent choice availability...
* Bane - even regarding Discern Weakness delayed gain from 6th level, I don't think Bane is equal to what it has given up. It is a massive boost, especially considering Studied Target.
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Grim Seeker
@ElghinnL
There is a part you seem to have forgotten or chosen not to put into effect. This ability I feel being very important to my concept and something I would like to see incorporated into the MCA, perhaps an ability that improves at certain levels.
"Possessing the ability to perceive those that use glamers and other illusory magic to alter their appearance through natural or magical means".
Also alter the line to this:
"Possessing the ability to perceive those that use glamers, illusory effects, and other magics such as shapeshifting to alter their appearance through natural or magical means".
This actually being something similar to what the Investigator can do, though it is through an archetype and involves eventually becoming completely immune to the illusion school... my point being if that class can do something like that why can't the Grimm Seeker have a special sight that reveals a creature's true appearance? Where no matter who or what the creature is the MCA can see past the glamors, the illusions, the transformations, and shapeshifting to what they truly are. Even doppelgangers, succubus, and dragons that have changed their appearance to something or someone else can be revealed.
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Also I am not really feeling the Solo Tactics and Teamwork feats access, they are not something I see this MCA using like the Inquisitor does.
@OceanSW
Actually I am quite fine with weapon proficiencies, my main concern being that that the MCA has access to all simple and martial weapons with a few exotic weapons here and there... though the Improvised Weapon feats chain is something that I would plan on taking when playing this MCA (when it is finished that is). Must always be prepared, no matter where and how you must fight.
The rest... I will leave for you and Elghinn to discuss.
Grim Seeker
@ElghinnL"Possessing the ability to perceive those that use glamers and other illusory magic to alter their appearance through natural or magical means".
Also alter the line to this:
"Possessing the ability to perceive those that use glamers, illusory effects, and other magics such as shapeshifting to alter their appearance through natural or magical means".This actually being something similar to what the Investigator can do, though it is through an archetype and involves eventually becoming completely immune to the illusion school... my point being if that class can do something like that why can't the Grimm Seeker have a special sight that reveals a creature's true appearance? Where no matter who or what the creature is the MCA can see past the glamors, the illusions, the transformations, and shapeshifting to what they truly are. Even doppelgangers, succubus, and dragons that have changed their appearance to something or someone else can be revealed.
There is a spell that does exactly this called 'True Sight', it is a level 5/6 spell in most cases, which for a 3/4 caster would be pretty high up there in terms of power.
I would wager however that by using other spells from the Divination school of spells there could be a way to gradually improve upon the ability to see things for what they really are.
Thoughts?
#Grim Seeker
This was just our base model to work from. Wasn't sure what you were looking for with the illusion stuff, now you've explained it to me.
Still have some room to maneuver in the build. Might reduce this from 5 favored targets down to 3? I'll see what I can do.
We can ditch the solo tactics. One question is does Jon want spells (divination/reveal related ones). If so, might want to swap this over to Inq primary. Just need to know.
WPs: Might be easier just to have simple + martial + one exotic of choice (including racial weapons)? For this MCA I thought of the bro/sis characters from Hansel and Gretel + the Brother's Grimm.
@Ape
The trades not mentioned simply replace all the spells lost by the reduction from full caster to hybrid caster - loss of 7th/8th/9th level spells. Other archetypes that do this don't mention the loss of those spells, its apparent by the spell table. We've done this with any other similar MCAs. Only time we mention something like that is spells lost due to diminished spellcasting which is a change to the current number of spells per day, not a complete change from full to hybrid to 1/2 caster.
@OSW
Bane could just give up what it and Greater Bane do? Then he just doesn't get Greater Bane, or we can give it (GB) to him as a talent?
There is a spell that does exactly this called 'True Sight', it is a level 5/6 spell in most cases, which for a 3/4 caster would be pretty high up there in terms of power.I would wager however that by using other spells from the Divination school of spells there could be a way to gradually improve upon the ability to see things for what they really are.
Thoughts?
True seeing goes pretty much without limitations, as it works everywhere you look automatically. But if you make it a voluntary action targeting only one creature ('I use my Sight on the barkeep'), perhaps even with a daily usage limit, that should work.
Alternatively it could have a specialized dispel attack, a revealing judgement, that negates illusions and polymorph effects with a touch.
There is a spell that does exactly this called 'True Sight', it is a level 5/6 spell in most cases, which for a 3/4 caster would be pretty high up there in terms of power.I would wager however that by using other spells from the Divination school of spells there could be a way to gradually improve upon the ability to see things for what they really are.
Thoughts?
True seeing goes pretty much without limitations, as it works everywhere you look automatically. But if you make it a voluntary action targeting only one creature ('I use my Sight on the barkeep'), perhaps even with a daily usage limit, that should work.
Alternatively it could have a specialized dispel attack, a revealing judgement, that negates illusions and polymorph effects with a touch.
Yeah, we could have True Seeing affect a single target and can only be used a number of times equal to 1/2 the Grim Seeker's level + (Wis/Int?) modifier?
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#Grim Seeker
I would much prefer it be through an extraordinary/supernatural ability, not spells. I don't want the Grim Seeker to have any access to spellcasting, at all. I want to be firm on this point, as while they will be exceptional in thier abilities they will be without natural magical capabilities or spellcasting.
Perhaps having daily uses and connected to the Judgement ability could work, but not touch as it will be a sight related ability. Though perhaps it could also be that the Grim Seeker can only see a creature's true form/appearance based on the MCA's level and the creature's hit dice. Also limiting it to a certain number of creatures per level equal to daily uses as an activated ability could also work... though it could also work through a Perception roll.
My only concern with daily uses is wasted uses and that I want the ability to work even if the character is not actively using it. Such as they could be talking with someone and all of a sudden they see that person is not who they seem... and the creature knows this and can react accordingly as a noticeable dark shine comes over the Grimm Seeker's eyes or they just sense their cover has been blown.
Also, since I just realized I may have been misunderstood I want the Grim Seeker to have proficiency in all simple and martial weapons. Also all crossbows, the blow gun, and some other exotic weapons.
#Grim seeker
Perception roll is fine too, in that case. It takes care of the fact nicely that the power doesnt always work. Dont know how to calculate DC though
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#Grim seeker
Perception roll is fine too, in that case. It takes care of the fact nicely that the power doesnt always work. Don't know how to calculate DC though
If only Pathfinder had not tossed the Challange Rating mechanic... though we could have it involve the creature's Hit Dice and Wisdom or Charisma modifier.
Here's the revised version fo the Grim Seeker.
SWAPS
Track = Perceive disguise
Slayer talent (2) = Monster lore + Stern gaze
2nd studied target = Bane (5)
Stalker = Discern weakness
Swift tracker = Swift perception
Slayer’s advance 1/day = Stalwart (11)
4th studied target = Exploit weakness (14)
Slayer’s advance 2/day = Foe hunter (17)
The grim seeker is knowledgeable in monsters and beings often hidden from the rest of the world that quite often possess powers that make them dangerous or even deadly to any who interact with them. It is the duty of these hunters to seek out, even slay if necessary, such creatures in an effort to protect those who cannot defend themselves against such threats. However, grim seekers also understand that not all such creatures are a threat. While some simply wish to be left alone, others may be willing to aid the grim seeker in tracking down these dangerous creatures. Bargaining or even allying with these supernatural or magical creatures can often lead the seeker to finding and killing the true threats. Knowledgeable, skilled, and possessing the ability to perceive those that use glamers and other illusory magic to alter their appearance through natural or magical means, the grim seeker exemplifies the axiom of the hunter becoming the hunted.
Primary Class: Slayer.
Secondary Class: Inquisitor.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The grim seeker selects three investigator skills to add to his class skills, in addition to the normal slayer class skills. The grim seeker gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The grim seeker is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, plus the blowgun, double crossbow, hand crossbow, repeating crossbow, repeating crossbow (heavy), and three exotic weapons of his choice. The grim seeker is also proficient with light and medium armor, and with shields (except tower shields).
Perceive Disguise (Ex or Su): At will, a grim seeker can use detect magic to determine the presence of magical disguises. A grim seeker can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is under the effects of an illusion spell, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the grim seeker does not detect the presence of illusion magic in any other object or individual within range.
At 5th level, can use see through magical disguises (whether illusions or polymorph effects) of the same caster level or lower, as the pierce disguise spell, for a number of rounds per day equal to his grim seeker level + his Wisdom modifier. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. This effect allows the grim seeker to see the true forms of creatures magically disguised by such methods. The true form appears as a ghostly overlay on the creature's disguised appearance.
In addition, when using Perception to penetrate the effects of an illusion (including invisibility) or a mundane disguise, a grim seeker gains a bonus equal to his grim seeker level on Perception check. This ability replaces track.
Studied Target (Ex): This is exactly like the slayer ability of the same name, except that the grim seeker can only use this ability against one target at 1st level, plus one additional target at the same time at 10th and 20th level.
Monster Lore (Ex): At 2nd level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s monster lore ability. This ability and stern gaze replace the slayer talent gained at 2nd level.
Stern Gaze (Ex): At 2nd level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s stern gaze ability.
Slayer Talent: This is exactly like the slayer’s ability of the same name, except that the grim seeker gains a slayer talent at 4t level and every four levels thereafter. In addition, the grim seeker may choose from the following new talents restricted to the Grim Seeker multiclass archetype.
Track (Ex): The grim seeker gains the slayer’s track class feature.
Vengeance (Su): The grim seeker is imbued with divine power and may select one of the following inquisitor’s judgments: healing, protection, purity, resiliency, and resistance. Whenever the grim seeker uses his studied target ability, he gains the benefits of one of his judgments. He may select this talent three times. Each time this talent is chosen, it applies to a different judgment. The grim seeker may only have one judgment active at a time.
Bane (Su): At 5th level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s bane ability, except that it can only be used against his studied target. This ability replaces the 2nd studied target.
Discern Weakness (Ex): At 7th level, a grim seeker becomes an expert at locating the weak points of his studied target. The grim seeker rolls twice to confirm critical hits against a studied target and keeps the higher roll. This ability replaces stalker.
Advanced Talents: This is exactly like the slayer’s ability of the same name, except that the grim seeker gains may choose from the following new talents restricted to the Grim Seeker multiclass archetype.
Swift Tracker (Ex): The grim seeker gains the slayer’s swift tracker class feature. The grim seeker must be at least 12th level to gain this talent.
Swift Perception (Ex or Su): At 11th level, a grim seeker can use his perceive disguise ability or make Perception checks to penetrate magical or mundane disguises as a swift action. This ability replaces swift tracker.
Stalwart (Ex): At 13th level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s stalwart ability. This ability replaces slayer’s advance 1/day.
Exploit Weakness (Su): At 15th level, a grim seeker gains the inquisitor’s exploit weakness ability, except that it can only be used against his studied target. This ability replaces 4th studied target.
Monster Slayer (Ex): At 17th level, a grim seeker learns to focus on one opponent. Once per day, whenever a grim seeker uses his studied target ability, he may select one studied target to the exclusion of all others. While focused on this single target, the grim seeker’s bane ability functions as the inquisitor’s greater bane ability.
In addition, the grim seeker is treated as if he were 5 levels higher for the purposes of determining the bonus granted by any inquisitor’s judgments gained through the vengeance talent. Unlike other types of judgment, the one enhanced by this ability cannot be changed for the remainder of the judgment. This ability replaces slayer’s advance 2/day.
Table: Grim Seeker
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 1st studied target, preceive disguise
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Monster lore, stern gaze
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Sneak attack +1d6
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Slayer talent
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Bane
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Slayer talent, sneak attack +2d6
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Discern weakness
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Slayer talent
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Sneak attack +3d6
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 2nd studied target, advanced talents, slayer talent
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Swift perception
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Slayer talent, sneak attack +4d6
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Stalwart
14th +14/+8/+4 +9 +9 +4 Quarry, slayer talent
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 Exploit weakness, sneak attack +5d6
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Slayer talent
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Foe hunter
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Slayer talent, sneak attack +6d6
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Improved quarry
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 3rd studied target, master slayer, slayer talent
#Witchslayer
I still kind of don't like it because counterspelling and Arcane Assault both are fighting for resources, when initially in my concept they were supposed to help each other.
other than the main pillar of my class being off, the class seems fine. if we really must change the name, Mage Bane works.
OK, I'm starting to get a bit frustrated with this witchslayer.
What is the issue with spending 1 point to get, essentially, the slayer's sneak attack damage for 1 attack? Your original version did the same thing, increasing in damage with level. This is no different than other arcane exploits that deal 1d6 damage and increase up to 10d6. It also giving you magic/cold iron and silver/and adamantine equivalence over the levels.
Your arcane reservoir was only 3 + 1/4 level, instead of a normal reservoir (3 + 1/2 level), which you have now.
Counterspelling is a resource ability. At 20th, you don't need to spend the Counterspell point if the ability is successful.
What are you wanting these things to do Bandw2? If you are worried about not having enough points, then pick consume spells as one of your exploits (which has been added as an exploit for this MCA).
If you are trying to synergize them, then how? The only way to do that is to use arcane assault to regain reservoir points. One possible way it to create another new exploit, as adding it straight to the ability engorges it. A new exploit that allows you to use counterspell as part of an arcane assault, allows him to regain a number of AR points equal to the level of the spell countered. Obviously, it would only work if the attack is successful.
Or something like this.
NEW EXPLOIT
Counter Assault (Su): Whenever the witchslayer successfully uses her counterspell ability against a studied target, she can make an arcane assault attack against that target within 3 rounds without the expending a reservoir point to absorb the energy of the countered spell. If the arcane assault attack is successful, the witchslayer regains a number of arcane reservoir points equal to the level of the countered spell. If the absorbed spell energy exceeds her maximum number of arcane reservoir points, the extra points are lost.
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#Grim Seeker
I think I see a couple of errors:
"Bonus Skills and Ranks: The grim seeker selects three investigator skills to add to his class skills, in addition to the normal slayer class skills. The grim seeker gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier."
Also on advancement chart it has Foe Hunter instead of Monster Slayer as you have listed for the ability.
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Onto the revised MCA itself... it has greatly improved. I am pleased with Perceive Disguise, especially as a first level ability, and feel you have handled the leveling of the ability well.
The bonus to Perception checks was nice, as it was something I wanted but was not sure how to have such.
Though I will ask, by level twenty will there still be creatures whose disguise the Grimm Seeker still cannot pierce? I hope not, at least I hope not many. The goal is to have it that few creatures can hide their true form at high levels from one with this MCA as their class.
One the rest, I have don't have anything to really complain about... though maybe others can offer ways to improve it.
#Witchslayer
My biggest piece of advice for this is the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Seriously.
It seems you're going outside the bounds of game mechanics for Pathfinder and frustrating Elghinn, which is a bad sign.
... I admit, to not having much else to offer. My apologizes
#Grim Seeker
I think I see a couple of errors:
"Bonus Skills and Ranks: The grim seeker selects three investigator skills to add to his class skills, in addition to the normal slayer class skills. The grim seeker gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 6 + Int modifier."Also on advancement chart it has Foe Hunter instead of Monster Slayer as you have listed for the ability.
Fixed those. Went with Monster Slayer.
Onto the revised MCA itself... it has greatly improved. I am pleased with Perceive Disguise, especially as a first level ability, and feel you have handled the leveling of the ability well.
The bonus to Perception checks was nice, as it was something I wanted but was not sure how to have such.
Though I will ask, by level twenty will there still be creatures whose disguise the Grimm Seeker still cannot pierce? I hope not, at least I hope not many. The goal is to have it that few creatures can hide their true form at high levels from one with this MCA as their class.
Glad you like it! I just used the paladin's detect evil ability as a template. Then I found the pierce disguise spell in the sor/wiz list, from the ACG, which fit perfectly. This way it starts with an ability to determine whether such spells are active, and gives a chance to penetrate them with a Perception check. the bonus also allows penetration fo make-up/mundane-based disguises. Then at 5th, it functions like the pierce disguise spell, revealing the true from under the disguise.
Not sure how many disguises can get away from him? I figure not too many if any I think. Any divination/disguise experts out there want to comment on that?
One the rest, I have don't have anything to really complain about... though maybe others can offer ways to improve it.
I think we're pretty close to what you're wanting Jon.
#Witchslayer
My biggest piece of advice for this is the KISS principle: Keep It Simple, Seriously.It seems you're going outside the bounds of game mechanics for Pathfinder and frustrating Elghinn, which is a bad sign.
... I admit, to not having much else to offer. My apologizes
While we may bend and skew PF rules and mechanics, going well beyond them, especially going beyond how things work within the game and the established mechanics makes things far more difficult. I try to amalgamate a variety of ideas into a single whole. For me to do that, I need to have all the aspects and ideas one is wanting, otherwise I can't do that.
Likely, this stems from my years of being the party leader in numerous campaigns, regardless of what class I was. I always try to find out all my resources, which includes what party members are capable of. Once I knew, I could devise tactics and plans to utilize everyone's skills and abilities to their full potential. That's how I approach building these things.
What you want, you will eventually get, though it sometimes takes time and a lot of hitting heads against walls until that one key is turned and the answer to the dilemma is revealed, or someone pipes in with another approach. That's why collaboration on these is so important. As I've said before, I've been known to scrap an entire MCA and rebuild it from the gorund up just to get the right combination of abilities (swaps in or out).
However, above all, while homebrew, these need to stay within the basic realms of the established PF mechanics and rules. When we start going beyond those, then I start getting frustrated. I don't know everything, and that's why I pretty patient working all these out, and want to get what the conceptualizer wants, but on the other hand, I've been building these for 4+ years. New base/hybrid classes or not, I have a lot of experience knowing what works and and what doesn't-what's convoluted beyond functionality and what can be stretched but remain within the realms of the established mechanics.
Its always easier to bend and shape class abilities that have built-in flexibility (talents, arcane reservoir, arcane pool, mercy, rage powers, etc.) than to try to create new, convoluted mechanics. Like Jon has said, and I've learned this from doing the convoluted stuff myself, its best to keep it as simple as possible.
@WIKI
All the new MCAs are up, except the Grim Seeker and Witchslayer/Mage Bane.
@All
Anything further on the Grim Seeker?
@Bandw2
What do you think about the new exploit? I think that's sort of what you're going for from your original concept. A way to regain arcane reservoir points in a way that combines the counterspell and arcane assault.
Another way would be to just have his absorb the spell energy when he counterspells. Those are the two best ways to accomplish the energy regain. Perhaps adding some check to actually absorb the spell energy, maybe a Spellcraft check?
Thoughts?
Well, Jon, I think we'll call the Grim Seeker good, in any case. If you are happy with it, so am I. Whether others want to play this or any of your other MCAs isn't the question (though that's always nice if they do), but if you would play them, as they are your creations.
QUEUE
Alright, next up is the Busker Mage (Arc/Brd) – Starfox. If he's even around anymore. Starfox, you have a day, then we'll move on.
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@Elghinn
Admittingly I do have some uncertainty on this, as while I may be happy with the class may not mean it is a good MCA. I mean I may be too easy to please, though this could partly be because I trust your skill and experience so seeing you as an 'expert' on the subject.
That do you think of the MCA? I mean so know you consider it important to please the person you're building the class for but what of your thoughts? Do you see this MCA playing a strong role in the party, of it being useful and of benefit to have in the group? I don't want to be the only one to use the MCA as I know for a fact I am willing to play character concepts or class builds others find useless or a disadvantage.
@Jon
My thoughts?
1) It definitely has a strong role as a hunter and destroyer of specific creatures-a monster hunter, which I believe is what you were going for.
2) It has the ability to penetrate creature's disguises (magical or mundane), allowing it to hopefully recognize demons, dragons, etc. who are infiltrating communities or the party. Through the vengeance talent, he can gain further protection through the various judgments.
So they have both an good offensive and defensive role.
3) Great skill use, on par with inquisitors and rangers, so out of combat options exist.
Overall I think its a very balanced, robust (though focused) MCA. Would I play one? If a campaign required a character with its role and class features, yes.
However, I would be more likely to play one of my own, because most of mine tend to have paladin, rogue, alchemist, or wizard as one of the classes. Those tend to be who I have always focused on. My play style usually leans to those, either in utility, leadership, or stealth. Mind you, the Grim Seeker does have some utility, and could definitely be the leader of a monster hunting group.
Regardless of whether I like a concept, I always try to make it the best it can be, through class features, balance, and options. Options are, in my opinion, what every class/MCA should have.
BTW, Grim Seeker is on the Wiki.
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@Elghinn
Sighs, this is why I respect you. You do great work and think ahead, with experience to see details people like me miss... despite me worrying too much.
I apologize for my doubts, lack of confidence and wanting people to like my ideas is a weakness of mine. Particularly because of my lack of skill and experience, as I have truthfully only really played 2nd edition D&D (as that was my groups preference) and I not yet had the chance to actually be a part of Pathfinder either as a player or DM. Though I have tinkered with its game mechanics, considered character builds, and read through many of the books.
It is for this reason I so rarely comment on others MCA as I do not feel qualified to say more then a yay or nay on the idea... that and real life busyness.
OK, I'm starting to get a bit frustrated with this witchslayer.
What is the issue with spending 1 point to get, essentially, the slayer's sneak attack damage for 1 attack? Your original version did the same thing, increasing in damage with level. This is no different than other arcane exploits that deal 1d6 damage and increase up to 10d6. It also giving you magic/cold iron and silver/and adamantine equivalence over the levels.
Your arcane reservoir was only 3 + 1/4 level, instead of a normal reservoir (3 + 1/2 level), which you have now.
Counterspell, at 2nd level you gain with Counterspell arcanist exploit. Whenever you counterspell either normally or through this exploit you gain 1 Arcane Reservoir point , if you fail to counterspell the AR point is still expended, however it you succeed you gain a point instead of losing one. this replaces the 2nd level slayer talent.
basically you went the ENTIRELY opposite direction.
this isn't complicated, i don't understand how this is anymore complicated than say, how true seeing works or any other spell.
@Jon
Well, there is still a lot of useful things in theorycrafting, even if you haven't had a lot of experience in the play area. That's what a collaboration thread is for, others make up for experience that others are missing.
That's why our original group of Multiclass Production members worked so well. We had 5 people with varying class preferences and experience to draw from, resulting in good, balanced, and usually interesting MCAs. OSW is the only one that is still participating, the others have moved on to other things, which was the goal of the MCAs anyways.
So, don't sell yourself short, if you have something to say, SAY IT! Sometimes is just one thing somebody says that turns a good MCA into a great one.
Counterspell, at 2nd level you gain with Counterspell arcanist exploit. Whenever you counterspell either normally or through this exploit you gain 1 Arcane Reservoir point , if you fail to counterspell the AR point is still expended, however it you succeed you gain a point instead of losing one. this replaces the 2nd level slayer talent.
basically you went the ENTIRELY opposite direction.
this isn't complicated, don't understand how this is anymore complicated than say, how true seeing works or any other spell.
Originally I thought this was way out there, expending the point on a fail, but gaining on a success. Now, I guess it really isn't that out there.
Sometimes it takes me a bit to come around. So, my apologies. Here's the changes.
Counterspell (Su): At 1st level, a mage bane gains the arcanist’s counterspell exploit. This ability replaces the slayer talent gained at 1st level.
Slight change to the Counter Assault exploit.
Counter Assault (Su): Whenever the mage bane successfully uses her counterspell ability against a studied target, she can make an arcane assault attack against that target within 3 rounds without the expending a reservoir point to absorb the energy of the countered spell. If the arcane assault attack is successful, the mage bane regains If the absorbed spell energy exceeds her maximum number of arcane reservoir points, the extra points are lost.
Enhance Counterspell (Su): At 6th level, a mage bane can expend 1 additional point from her arcane reservoir as part of her counterspell ability to counter a spell one level higher than the level of the spell expended. For example, if a mage bane wants to counter a 2nd level spell, she must spend 1 point from her arcane reservoir and expend a spell of 3rd level or higher. If the mage bane chooses to enhance her counterspell by expending an additional point from his arcane reservoir, she can counter a 3rd level spell instead of a 2nd level spell.
For every six levels beyond 6th, the level of spell a mage bane can counter when using his counterspell ability increases by 1, up to a maximum of 3 at 18th level. The mage bane must expend a number of additional points from his arcane reservoir equal to the increase in spell level he is attempting to counter. Thus, an 18th level mage bane must expend 1 point from his arcane reservoir to use greater counterspell, expend a 6th–level spell, and spend 3 additional points from his arcane reservoir to increase the equivalent spell level by 3 to counter a 9th–level spell.
Counterspell Supremacy (Su): At 20th level, a mage bane becomes a master at counterspelling.
In addition, the mage bane gains a +4 bonus to all Spellcraft skill checks made to identify a spells as it is being cast. This ability replaces magical supremacy.
I've graduated the ability to allow for gaining more and more arcane reservoir points on a successful counterspell. Making him extremely potent by 20th with his counterspelling. So, I'm wondering if allowing the choice of Consume Spells as an exploit makes it too easy to regain AR points?
Mind you you are expending spell slots, so maybe not. One resource for another - 6 of one, half dozen of the the other as the saying goes.