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So far as I can tell, staves are only worth picking up if you want a consumable L1 spell at CL6+, or a L2 spell at CL17+, and that's using a staff like its a wand.
Is there a point in Pathfinder where Staves justify the cost?
I know that people used to really like staves back in 3.5, but back then they had 50 charges rather than 10, and they cost 15/16 the price (a bit cheaper).
I also know that wands only go up to 4th. Is it really worth putting the higher level spells in a staff?
Staves can always be recharged. And you can use both your caster level for the spell and your casting ability to set the DC.
well, you use your caster level, ability modifier and "relevant feats" for spells cast from a staff. They may also have only 10 charges now, but you can recharge them.
EDIT: Bloody ninjas.
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Ah. I missed that you can recharge staves without it costing you more gold. That would make a bit of a difference.
I knew about the CL and casting ability, but when I ran the numbers, it was still much cheaper to buy wands of anything that wands could do, except in the two cases I mentioned in my first post.
What feats apply to using a staff that are worth mentioning? Can you metamagic staff charges? Can I wield a metamagic rod in one hand and a staff in the other?
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You're REALLY underestimating the value of using your own stats. Take any save or suck spell and it is generally almost useless coming from a wand while still viable from a staff. For example, a 3rd level spell from a wand has a save of 13, from a staff it could very easily be 20+.
The increased caster level is also often valuable but generally less so
There a magus arcana that does something similar, I believe.
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You're REALLY underestimating the value of using your own stats. Take any save or suck spell and it is generally almost useless coming from a wand while still viable from a staff. For example, a 3rd level spell from a wand has a save of 13, from a staff it could very easily be 20+.
The increased caster level is also often valuable but generally less so
I'm not underestimating my stats.
I agree my stats make a huge difference for those kinds of spells. However, generally I would avoid trying to stuff those kinds of spells into items, and use items for utility spells and buff spells, where the DCs and CLs don't really matter.
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Staves are over priced for what you get, unless your adventure cycle generally permits you to refill them before each set of adventuring days (e.g. 1-2 days adventuring, 10 days off).
I agree my stats make a huge difference for those kinds of spells. However, generally I would avoid trying to stuff those kinds of spells into items, and use items for utility spells and buff spells, where the DCs and CLs don't really matter.
That seems a needless restriction. A spell is a spell, right?
I find staves to be useful for pseudo-spontaneous spells that you may need a lot of but won't always need and won't always have time to prepare when you do. Given that you can golf-bag them in an efficient quiver, they're more action-efficient than scrolls and they're more powerful in combat than wands.
So a staff of fire is great if you find you need to blast something. A staff of healing is a great first-aid kit that frees up your spell slots if you don't plan to be healbot all day and still allows you to fix things when you're fighting that nasty blinding monster. A staff of f*** the undead lets you have all the anti-undead spells you need and only gets dragged out when you find yourself unexpectedly in the Chasm of Endless Ghosts.
And so forth.
Scrolls are much cheaper to make for utility spells that you need on hand. Wands of cure light wounds are a much cheaper alternative to other methods of mass healing.
The only really good use for staves seem to be for blasters since spells from a staff use your casting stats, feats, and abilities. The two most useful staves for this purpose are the staff of fire and staff of power.
Scrolls are much cheaper to make for utility spells that you need on hand.
Not if you need them quickly or repeatedly.
That's why I suggested the staff of healing. When half the party has been hit with ability drains, you can do repeated restorations and keep them up. You don't necessarily have ten scrolls of that spell to hand, and you don't need to spend a move action every round pulling the scroll out of your haversack.
A non-combat spell like augury, yes, you can afford the time to pull out the scroll, and you can probably even wait a day and cast it tomorrow. But if a pack of greater shadows are eating the barbarian's face right now, you might not want to wait until he's dead.
But if a pack of greater shadows are eating the barbarian's face right now, you might not want to wait until he's dead.
Not the best example, as the restoration spells have a 3 round casting time. But same argument for if your party gets blinded. And *10* lesser restorations aren't necessarily something you keep just hanging about.
One of the few staves that can actually save you money is a Staff of Life, for the component free raise dead. You pay for it on the front end of course, to a large extent (about half the price of the staff).
Staves essentially add a significant amount of spontaneous casting for a select number of spells. That can be a huge crack in the limitations of a prepared spellcaster, or an nice expansion of the options for a 'spells known' caster. Arcanists need not apply, frankly.
For a very long campaign staves can save a lot on spells with costly components assuming that you will cast those spells more than fifty times. I'd say that it's quite possible for restoration or greater restoration, stone skin, and a few others.
For a very long campaign staves can save a lot on spells with costly components assuming that you will cast those spells more than fifty times. I'd say that it's quite possible for restoration or greater restoration, stone skin, and a few others.
Yes, good point, though it can be less than fifty times, if the spell consumes more than one charge.
staff of true resurrection or staff of wish that uses 10 charges... Allows casting its spell once per ten days assuming that you will recharge it every day.
137 240 gp. I think it would be quite worth it in long term.
I like the Staff of the Magi from old school D&D and still like the Pathfinder version, I think it is an artifact now.
My wizard would probably give you a good price if you found one and didn't want it.
Staves essentially add a significant amount of spontaneous casting for a select number of spells. That can be a huge crack in the limitations of a prepared spellcaster, or an nice expansion of the options for a 'spells known' caster. Arcanists need not apply, frankly.
Meh, even Arcanists need to choose their spells prepared. If I have a staff of thingummy, that saves me from having to prepare thingummy-related spells that may or may not be needed, and frees me up to prepare other spells that I think may also be needed. You don't know what language will be spoken at the other end of the teleport circle? Grab the staff of understanding in case you need it.
The way I've always seen it...
A good staff is an excellent find. You might end up not selling it, even if it's not quite what you wanted. Because hey, it might not be exactly what you wanted, but you're only getting half the sale price.
But a staff is usually a horrible purchase. I have never needed 50 uses worth of Raise Dead, even in midst of a killer GM campaign, on top of the actual pricing of the staff. At the absolute most, I'd get a staff of Stoneskin/Communal Stoneskin, simply because that's a common, costly buff. If I need more castings of certain spells, I'll generally go for scrolls.
Crafting is another matter altogether, but we know how borked the crafting rules are.