Dipping Sorceror and / or Wizard with the Arcanist. Worth it?

[Arcane Addict]

I'm creating an Arcanist for a homegame and I was wondering what others thought of the validity of taking the Bloodline Development and/or School Understanding exploits in combination with a dip in their respective classes in order to get complete access to them without having to spend points from the Arcanist's reservoir.
I'm well aware of the archetypes that perform a similar function, but these take up far too many exploits for my tastes (in addition to locking them in at specific levels).

I'm also aware that such a character would be 1 or even 2 levels behind in its spell-progression. And that this is somehow considered a sin here ^^ Can this be overcome?

Are there any specific combinations that prove very powerful or synergistic? Which are the trappiest of traps? Which races, feats, traits, spells or, well, other things can be used to improve upon this concept?

I have no desire to make a character that is as optimized as can be, but I don't want to make a character that falls so far behind as to render himself useless either.

[Zwordsman]

Well.. I have a Blade Adept arcanist that goes sorc and then Dragon Disciple.

He ends up with maybe 1 higher bab or about equal bab to a normal arcanist. His caster level is his character level due to traits. He does lose out of a few spell levels because of dragon disciple of course. Basically he just turned into a durable direct damage spell caster who can stab mooks (or bigger things but it requries usage of points)

I don't know much about wizards. But there are plenty of good schools that you don't really need character level on. or at least not active ones. The sorcerer side doesn't feel too horrible because of the Arcana,s and if your using areally focused build some of those arcanas can add more DC to things than the lost spell level.
For blaster I think I'd dip crossblooded sorcere, but I don't think any of the blast helping wizard schools gain much by counting arcanist as levels.. since i'd use school understanding to get admixture.

So it really just depends on your specific build. But with my limited knowledge of wizard schools I lean towards sorcerer's being a better dip due to arcanas being static bonuses; and some potentially useful bloodline powers.
Abbarant bloodline might be amusing if you enjoy touch attacks since it gains range on it. though there are classes that do touch attacks better (magus and cardcaster witch come to mind).

Kinda hard to make a general kinda comment on the two possible dips.

As for spell level lost, it's not terrible if you aren't using spells that require DC saves (as your spell levels will be lower than what your fighting typically so the chance for them to fail them is less).
You can do blasting pretty alright; since most of them scale with level it only loses some damage. There are more than a few battle field spells i think that can work with lower spell level.. but I'm no good at those. I typically play the blasty sort and rely on skills for most else.

what kinda arcanist are you wanting?

[Arcane Addict]

I have to say I like the combination you went with! Very cool imagery comes to mind when I think what such a character could look like and do. And you managed to get that while seemingly losing very little in the trade-off for more martial prowess.

Here's the thing though, the particular character I'm thinking of is decidedly a spellcaster. Nothing else. I wouldn't be making a trade-off as well as yours where you substitute one kind of power with another. I guess what I'm doing is trading that same kind of power for, well, 'just' reinforcing the flavor of my character and seemingly little else. I'll get into that a little more later because I created this thread to discuss this idea in general, not necessarily my own specific character. I just want to know how much one can sacrifice before becoming too weak, really.

I would've thought that of all 'kinds' of casters blasters would suffer the most from losing out on spell-levels or 'just' delaying it. Especially considering most blasty spells do allow saves. How did you figure it was still effective enough? How much do you feel you can afford to lose out, on, say, Fireball, before you'd ditch the idea and start over with something else?
I can see how adding say Orc really helps mitigate some of the loss of damage though.

Which traits did you use to reinforce your casterlevel? I'm only aware of one (cannot think of the name right now -_-) and it only fixes it by 2 levels.

I like the Abberant bloodline's abilities, but, like you said, I feel it would better serve a different class and character. Now I'm thinking of making a 'Cha-Magus' (sorry, I'm kinda terrible with names...) with Eldritch Heritage feats...

Now for the part where I do talk about my specific character (I don't feel bad about that. We all like to talk about our characters, right?!)
I've always liked Nethys' flavor and dogma (inasmuch as Nethys can be said to have one anyway) and I feel it really lines up neatly with the Arcanist, more so than perhaps any other caster. I bought Inner Sea Gods at the same time I bought the Advanced Class Guide and so now I'm trying to create a character that lives up to that. I'm thinking, Arcanist 8/Sorceror 1/ Wizard 1/ Evangelist 10 for the idea. I'm pretty sure its far from optimal but I'm dead set on doing it anyway... Right now I'm thinking Arcane Bloodline and Divination - Foresight School, though I'm considering Conjuration - Teleportation. I do like battlefield control and summoning, with a small smattering of buffing/debuffing and blasting to round it out. I've already created a background and personality for the character which I feel is pretty cool, but I'll refrain from boring everyone with it for now!

[Cap. Darling]

I Think the relative slow spell progression of the arcanist is his only point of not amazingly strong. So i advice Against losing another level in that race. Pick the School savant AT if you want a full School. And forget about the sorcerer stuff. Only Reason to dip sorcerer is if you want the damage bonus arcanas.

[Zwordsman]

Yeah then in general. Unless you have a specific power set you absolutely want at ARcanist level without spending points (points aren't that hard to get really), or a later power, then the dips aren't worth it. Baring some specific arcana you want from a bloodline at least.

I don't know much about evangelist.. so I can't comment on that,

but it sounds like your not interestted in the higher level exploits, in which case your build isn't too bad. Most of the battle field altering stuff isn't terribly damaged by lower spell levels. For the most part anyway..

AOE blasting will always be kinda ssquify due to the DC, but if your not comparing that blasting ability to the guy who focuses only on fireball then it's not bad damage even if they make the save. Just know your not going to be nuking a group for like 60+.
You can still focus blast someone pretty decently with spells like scorching ray, the elemental Orb spells, and that new discus spell (it's just scorching ray but in disc form that does bashing or slicing damage). Those scales with caster level, gaining extra hits or longer lasting. So you can pick up some ability to burst (the ray/disc), some aoe damage (fireball and later maybe fire snake for aoe damage and some control), and damage over time kinda stuff with an elemental orb spell. Nice thing about arcanist is they use a wizard style book keeping so you can pick them all up and just use them when you think you'll need them. Could always snag one of those traits that let you metamagic easier and add some sorta effects or more damage

and yeah there are two? traits that are like the one your thinking of. I don't think they stack though. but since you lose one caster per wiz and sorc, you'll still be at character level caster level, just not spell level (assuming evangalist is a caster prestige class). Not gonna be omfg amazing at things but you'll not be useless of course, and you'll have some tools and toys.

[Arcane Addict]

Hmm, sounds like I'm really purposefully burning myself doing this then. But, well, I'm just too stubborn to let it go, lol! I'm crossing my fingers that proper timing of when to dip will save the character from being too embarrassing. How bad can it be, really? I'm still a spellcaster!

Evangelist is pretty cool! I'd encourage anyone to look it up. The Align Class feature is amazing! It costs me one caster level though.

Well, there's a few greater exploits I like. You're right though, not enough for it to matter all that much.

The Arcanist's flexibility to prepare and cast is what makes this class perfect to me. Like you said, I can maintain my usual casting preferences while having access to those spells when I really want/need them. I'm still on the fence regarding Magical Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter (I'm with my books now!) especially because taking either of them locks me out of Magical Knack.

So, how do you manage to maintain a caster level equal to your HD then if not for these traits?

Thanks guys! I now know to butter up my DM before play ;)

[Zwordsman]

hey i've stubbornly done builds. As long as the rest of the group understands what it is you do. No real problems. problems only arise when everyone else thinks your suppose to do something you can't. Everything else is just adjusting (in pfs anyway. in a home game with others typically its easier for adjustment). 'but losing 2 spell levels isn't that bad honestly. I've done it with a straight dragon disciple-sorcerer (didn't get past lv 8 dD though) where I did fine in the games i'm in. With a gm who likes to make things way harder than normal.
Just gotta be a bit clever in how you and your group plays in the end.

I think those traits are the only way I can think of to maintain it...
i typically don't use much in the way of metamagic, outside of rods.. but thats just my playstyle and how the games i play in generally end up. So I like having character level caster level (plus I dont have to try and remember to adjust for things).

Well most exploits you can pick up with a feat after if you want it haha.