Goblin Squad Member
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I've tried several times to give focus objects a shot as a damage dealing weapon for the convenience of not having to switch weapons when I need to heal but... the damage is just AWFUL.
Touch of Darkness is a good secondary (complete with the standard heavy stam drain of a secondary) but I can't name a single other attack on the focus I would recommend to anyone over just switching to your melee/ranged weapon.
One of the things that I've noticed is Damage over Time conditions just seem ridiculously gimped in this game. Usually damage over time means serious damage output but it gives the target time to respond and remove the condition before it takes effect. In this game it seems weaker than direct damage.
What am I missing? What is the big upside to focus object attacks, especially the primaries? Why even include primary attacks on the focus objects if they are going to be that weak?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't particularly care about doing "the most damage" compared with "playing my character", so I've found the damage to be just fine. I've written up my load-outs and play-style for my spell-casting Cleric in other threads, so I won't repeat that here.
If all builds did the same damage, it feels as if the characters--to me--would seem quite cookie-cutter, except for art.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If all builds did the same damage, it feels as if the characters--to me--would feel quite cookie-cutter, except for art.
I agree.
There is an obsession in many games to "balance" classes across all levels so you end up with a boring wishy washy sameness. Traditional D&D had classes that hit "sweet spots" at different levels and some classes were simply versatile rather than big hitters.
Pre range-nerf I use the focus a lot in dangerous situation as it gives me both ranged and melee plus the option of quick self self heal simply by clicking F1. I sometimes ran with just focus and melee weapon and no bow at all, just using long range 35m level 3 cleric spells for snipe situations.
Admittedly the handy instant ranged option (great if you nearly killed something and it started to run) has been substantially nerfed by the recent overall range nerf but it still remains a very versatile fit.
Since the range nerf I use the focus a lot less, and in fact have started to put all my XP into crafting.
Yeah that touch is v nice.
The thing about all of the other is they really do NO DAMAGE. We're not talking about balance... but this is no damage. Like less than 20 damage. You can defeat a goblin (and I have) but it takes so long. I was like ah these enemies aren't undead. I need to try it on skeles! But it didn't do any different.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are plenty of orisons that do no damage, and few that do. It's a matter of using the orison one wants for the effect one desires; there are a lot of things Clerics can do with their orisons to aid their friends and hinder their enemies, but there aren't a lot of options for orison-delivered damage.
There are plenty of orisons that do no damage, and few that do. It's a matter of using the orison one wants for the effect one desires; there are a lot of things Clerics can do with their orisons to aid their friends and hinder their enemies, but there aren't a lot of options for orison-delivered damage.
yeah I mean, I never thought of dmg for clerics in general but it seems that you gotta kill with the focus so it becomes an issue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been able to kill plenty of things with my focus, and I'm pleased with my all-orison-all-the-time Cleric. He's slower on the kill than others, and than he himself would be if I also used a weapon--he also needs to take care more than other characters--but I'm having fun, and that's my only standard to meet or beat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is an obsession in many games to "balance" classes across all levels so you end up with a boring wishy washy sameness.
I just did a little test on a level 1 crusader that didn't have any stats pumped beyond 1-2. It was able to kill a bandit archer in 5 hits with a battleaxe.
Then I equipped the highest damage primary orison, firebolt. It took 32 attacks to kill it. 32 attacks.
Using no secondary attacks it took roughly 5 seconds to kill a goblin warrior with an axe, and 25 for a messenger with with the focus object.
That's not asking for balance. It's asking to not make it utterly freaking useless. The fact some people are ok with that is great but this is a competitive game. You don't have to balance it perfect but that's not even trying.
If you want to avoid wishy washy sameness that go with the focus object's tendency to have a good amount of debuffs and DoT. Then make the DoT actually take a chunck of health larger than a sliver at a rate less than snail pace.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is an obsession in many games to "balance" classes across all levels so you end up with a boring wishy washy sameness.I just did a little test on a level 1 crusader that didn't have any stats pumped beyond 1-2. It was able to kill a bandit archer in 5 hits with a battleaxe.
Then I equipped the highest damage primary orison, firebolt. It took 32 attacks to kill it. 32 attacks.
Using no secondary attacks it took roughly 5 seconds to kill a goblin warrior with an axe, and 25 for a messenger with with the focus object.
That's not asking for balance. It's asking to not make it utterly freaking useless. The fact some people are ok with that is great but this is a competitive game. You don't have to balance it perfect but that's not even trying.
By the same token when I party with people in game my part time cleric (he is mainly a crafter) seems to be the last man standing even though he charges into melee like a crazy fanatic.
Seriously, if you want to do fighter damage ( and fight like a fighter choosing a high damage attack and spamming it) build a fighter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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By the same token when I party with people in game my part time cleric (he is mainly a crafter) seems to be the last man standing even though he charges into melee like a crazy fanatic.
Seriously, if you want to do fighter damage ( and fight like a fighter choosing a high damage attack and spamming it) build a fighter.
Why would I? I play a crusader which does comparable damage to a fighter via melee weapons AND has self heals.
I'm perfectly satisfied with my cleric because I've dropped every damage ability but touch of darkness from the focus object. Still, if you are going to include attacks in the game and have people pay XP for them then don't make them useless. You could make cleric primary orisons do 3 times the damage they currently do and they would probably still be the weakest primaries in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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By the same token when I party with people in game my part time cleric (he is mainly a crafter) seems to be the last man standing even though he charges into melee like a crazy fanatic.
Seriously, if you want to do fighter damage ( and fight like a fighter choosing a high damage attack and spamming it) build a fighter.
Why would I? I play a crusader which does comparable damage to a fighter via melee weapons AND has self heals.
I'm perfectly satisfied with my cleric because I've dropped every damage ability but touch of darkness from the focus object. Still, if you are going to include attacks in the game and have people pay XP for then then don't make them useless. You could make cleric primary orisons do 3 times the damage they currently do and they would probably still be the weakest primaries in the game.
Crusader gives no bonus at all to focus attacks.
Crusader = light and heavy melee bonus
Evangelist = ranged and divine bonus
Note: I think cleric damage could use a slight buff - I just do not agree with "darned awful".
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Goblin Squad Member
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By the same token when I party with people in game my part time cleric (he is mainly a crafter) seems to be the last man standing even though he charges into melee like a crazy fanatic.
Seriously, if you want to do fighter damage ( and fight like a fighter choosing a high damage attack and spamming it) build a fighter.
Why would I? I play a crusader which does comparable damage to a fighter via melee weapons AND has self heals.
I'm perfectly satisfied with my cleric because I've dropped every damage ability but touch of darkness from the focus object. Still, if you are going to include attacks in the game and have people pay XP for then then don't make them useless. You could make cleric primary orisons do 3 times the damage they currently do and they would probably still be the weakest primaries in the game.
Crusader gives no bonus at all to focus attacks.
Crusader = light and heavy melee bonus
Evangelist = ranged and divine bonusNote: I think cleric damage could use a slight buff - I just do not agree with "darned awful".
It's definitely borderline awful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's definitely borderline awful.By the same token when I party with people in game my part time cleric (he is mainly a crafter) seems to be the last man standing even though he charges into melee like a crazy fanatic.
Seriously, if you want to do fighter damage ( and fight like a fighter choosing a high damage attack and spamming it) build a fighter.
Why would I? I play a crusader which does comparable damage to a fighter via melee weapons AND has self heals.
I'm perfectly satisfied with my cleric because I've dropped every damage ability but touch of darkness from the focus object. Still, if you are going to include attacks in the game and have people pay XP for then then don't make them useless. You could make cleric primary orisons do 3 times the damage they currently do and they would probably still be the weakest primaries in the game.
Crusader gives no bonus at all to focus attacks.
Crusader = light and heavy melee bonus
Evangelist = ranged and divine bonusNote: I think cleric damage could use a slight buff - I just do not agree with "darned awful".
lol or a touch awful with a smidgeon of dreadful but not quite atrocious ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Crusader = light and heavy melee bonus
Evangelist = ranged and divine bonus
Fine. This is my test character with level 1 in every skill. So lets see how this goes down as an evangelist.
5 attacks / 10 seconds with an axe on a wolf.
31 attacks / 36 seconds with fire bolt.
Both of those were taken while Evangelist was active. Bonus to divine attack, no bonus to melee. Both done with the highest damage primaries of their weapon type.
The big difference is that the melee attack drains 23 stam while the firebolt drains 9 but remember, this was done on an evangelist with a bonus to divine attack and none to melee, and it took over 3 times as long to kill the same monster.
Do you not see a problem there?
maybe trading damage for interesting effects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Again I'm going to hark on maces and morningstars being divine weapons. The TT cleric tends to use blunt weapons for damage at the low levels and then gets some better damage spells at higher levels. That's how I see the PFO cleric playing out, using maces and morningstars for kills until they get the higher level spells.
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Again I'm going to hark on maces and morningstars being divine weapons. The TT cleric tends to use blunt weapons for damage at the low levels and then gets some better damage spells at higher levels. That's how I see the PFO cleric playing out, using maces and morningstars for kills until they get the higher level spells.
How about a mechanic that gives Clerics divine achievements for using their deity's favorite weapon? I don't know if there's currently a mechanic, or plans for one, that allows a cleric to choose a deity. But I think there's a good argument for tying this to divine achievements since it's directly related to the cleric's deity.
Maybe this could lead to most clerics worshiping a certain deity so they get access to the weapon, but I still like the idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The original theme of my cleric Haagen-Dazs was a frost based cleric.
Icicle is 0.12 and Haagen was doing 5 damage per hit. I switched him to Lightning Arc at 0.64 and doing 26 damage per hit but he still uses Icicle here and there to slow targets. It felt like a grind but he achieved Divine Focus 7 from that alone after a few days. This was with Healer and Protection, and I'm not sure how all of the keywords and levels interact. (Could someone help me understand that?)
Since Haagen needs the Con boost I'm spending my ep's on Crusader and Evangelist and trying the mace. He's doing 45 damage per hit.
On the plus side I have a 29 physical resistance, and with all the lowbie goblins outside town after the last patch the achievements are faster to go through.
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@Avari and @Being, I appreciate your support! And Being, I like your bless weapon idea as well.
Once I got the hang of things, I started to have more fun as a cleric. And I haven't done it yet, but I'm planning to try the all-orison-all-the-time method that Jazzlvraz mentioned.
But I have to admit, that even though I tend to agree with most of them, all the posts about how terrible/underpowered clerics are is starting to make me a bit depressed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It isn't time for depression, but celebration, for we have a developer who listens for the good of the game.
They may not agree, but I believe that if they disagree it will be for a right reason.
Plus! We haven't seen more than a novice yet. Wait for the hoary Padre with his great oaken-shafted adamantine +4 two fisted hammer and his hellfire focus.
He shall roar his sermon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can tell you one thing, they are great for healing LOL
Goodfellow trained level one cleric for healing. He followed me around as I ran my melee character head first into large mobs, and I stayed alive no problem.
Granted, since then, I have learned how to do the above solo. And I kill them much much quicker then my ranged character ever could. NERF MELEE!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even focus objects are great items.
Cleric focus object attacks (excluding touch of darkness) are severely underpowered and they might as well not even be in the game if they don't see a significant buff.
That's what we are talking about here. Not brainless "go play a fighter" quips.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...might as well not even be in the game if they don't see a significant buff.
I still haven't seen why this's so. Who cares if they don't do the damage other methods do, if those methods are available for those who choose to use them?
They're fine as-is for some folks, not fine for others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But if you have to kill things with it to clear achievements in order to advance it is an issue.
I believe that was pretty well fixed. For your divine achievements you can kill undead and cultists with anything and get divine achievements. If you HAVE to kill them with a focus (no skellies or cultists around) you can beat them to within an inch of their lives with your real weapon and push them over the edge with the focus to get a focus achievement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...might as well not even be in the game if they don't see a significant buff.I still haven't seen why this's so. Who cares if they don't do the damage other methods do, if those methods are available for those who choose to use them?
They're fine as-is for some folks, not fine for others.
Having skills in the game that are a complete waste of space is tricking newbies in wasting XP because they assume the developers wouldn't allow something so horridly underpowered to even exist.
Again we're not taking slightly unbalanced. We're talking if you doubled the damage it still will likely be a bit gimpy.
I don't think caster clerics nessicarily need to be able to be damage powerhouses with divine magic, but their damage is pathetic even for a support class. I mean melee attacks and holy symbols are great, but any attack that goes into the game needs a justification for existence. Focus primaries just don't have that at this point.
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@Being and @Xeen, I appreciate the encouragement. Like everyone keeps saying, "It's Alpha!" It's just hard not to feel a bit sad for my favorite class, but I'm hanging in there!
In regards to the primary orisons, it was my understanding that their focus is on the effects/conditions they impart and not so much the damage. I've not had much time to play lately, so I don't have first-hand experieince on their effectiveness when combined with a secondary. That being said, a damage boost may still be in order.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But if you have to kill things with it to clear achievements in order to advance it is an issue.I believe that was pretty well fixed. For your divine achievements you can kill undead and cultists with anything and get divine achievements. If you HAVE to kill them with a focus (no skellies or cultists around) you can beat them to within an inch of their lives with your real weapon and push them over the edge with the focus to get a focus achievement.
That might work for the dedicated, but once I engage an enemy, switching focus at any tiem is about 50% likely to end with me dead (and/or an aggressor flag of some kind.)