Since the cave domain power is a SLA and the darkvision spell is 2nd level, this should count as a 2nd level SLA, correct?
No.
Cavesight is a spell like ability, but it is not the darkvision spell.
That means this FAQ entry applies:
Cleric domains, sorcerer bloodlines, wizard schools, and certain other class features give spell-like abilities that aren't based on spells. What's the effective spell level for these abilities?
The effective spell level for these spell-like abilities is equal to the highest-level spell that a character of that class could normally cast at the level the ability is gained.
For example, a 1st-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental ray as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 1's highest-level spell available is 1st, that spell-like ability counts as a 1st-level spell. A 9th-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental blast as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 9's highest-level spell available is 4th, that spell-like ability counts as a 4th-level spell.
You get the domain at 1st level, so it is a 1st level spell-like ability.
No. It would have to be "spell like ability to cast [darkvision, the spell]" not something that simply grants you [darkvision the special ability] with different rules than the spell.
Actually, I'm a bit confused by this as well. Looking at the entry for spell-like abilities:
Spell-like abilities function just like spells, but are granted through a special racial ability or by a specific class ability (as opposed to spells, which are gained by spellcasting classes as a character gains levels).
Shouldn't all spell-like abilities be based off a spell? Otherwise, wouldn't it be more accurate to consider it a Supernatural ability?
In this case, one cannot state if there are verbal/somatic components, what type of action it takes, and (if any) what type of save should be applied, since it's not based on any existing spell.
Jeraa's post still stands
Jeraa's post still stands
I'm not so sure it does.
You are saying if the darvision of the cave domain linked here instead it would be legal as a 2nd level.
But...
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.
Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.
If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained.
We have two kinds of darkvision. We have the racial ability, and we have the spell. If an ability is just like a racial ability, but there is also the spell which functions just like the racial ability (only in this case, has a time limit), I can see the argument that it would key off the available spell because a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.
Also, other faq that may or may not have a bearing.
I'm going to assume you're trying to snag the early entry mystic theurge off of this and go through the problems with that.
1) Its the [darkvision ability] not the [darkvision spell] Granting the [darkvision ability] for some time to your companion or 1 hour per level to yourself 3 x per day isn't any particular spell level and you need a second level spell.
2) Without being the [darkvision spell], its not a wizard spell, so its not an arcane ability its a divine one and won't help.
Even if it were the spell, I think they've now clarified that if you get a spell from a divine class, it's a divine spell for you.
Any idea where? THe ability is loopholy enough that i need to see the exact wording.
Even if it were the spell, I think they've now clarified that if you get a spell from a divine class, it's a divine spell for you.
Any idea where? THe ability is loopholy enough that i need to see the exact wording.
From the July 2013 FAQ:
For spell-like abiities gained from a class, use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine. If the class doesn't cast spells, use the above rule for spell-like abilities from race or type.
@Te'Shen: The ability is Cavesight. This is different than the spell Darkvision. Return to Go. Do not collect $200.
You miss my point. seebs is closer, but still misses my point (unless he's responding to something else... to which I then apologize).
Cavesight (Sp): You can grant darkvision 60 feet to a willing creature you touch. This effect lasts 1 minute, or 1 hour if used on yourself. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Cavesight is a Spell like ability. Check.
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.
Is there a spell of the same name? Darkvision. Check.
Does it function similarly to the Darkvision spell in the same way that the Trickster Cleric ability Copycat has been officially ruled to work/function like the Mirror Image spell? Check.
I think you either didn't understand my point or you avoided it. Neither nets you any points.
. . . 1) Its the [darkvision ability] not the [darkvision spell] Granting the [darkvision ability] for some time to your companion or 1 hour per level to yourself 3 x per day isn't any particular spell level and you need a second level spell. . . .
. . .
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, M (either a pinch of dried carrot or an agate)
Range: touch
Target: creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Resistance: yes (harmless)
. . .
The subject gains the ability to see 60 feet even in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise like normal sight.
Hmm... I'd say that the spell and the spell like ability are very similar.
The spell is based on the monster ability, but it I think it could easily be argued that a spell like ability is based on the spell unless otherwise stated.
That, Howie, is why there might be some disagreement.
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There is not a spell named "Cavesight".
It's the ability name that counts. It doesn't say you cast darkvision, it says you grant darkvision. If the word "darkvision" referred to the spell, then the SLA would be granting the target the ability to cast that spell, not letting them see in the dark.
Precisely this.
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. . .
It's the ability name that counts. It doesn't say you cast darkvision, it says you grant darkvision. If the word "darkvision" referred to the spell, then the SLA would be granting the target the ability to cast that spell, not letting them see in the dark.
I'm... not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse.
Darkvision is an EX ability. I'm pretty sure that no creature with racial darkvision has the ability to grant it to somebody else.
Cavesight is an SP ability with all the baggage that that entails. You do cast an SP ability. The SP ability of Cavesight is almost exactly like the spell darkvision.
Cavesight has less in common with the EX Darkvision ability and more in common with the Spell Darkvision. (Time limits. Touch. One creature.)
YOU are stressing this part of the SP description...
. . . If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is gained. . . .
While I am saying others could stress this part of the description.
Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name.
Then it follows that you cast the spell like ability darkvision because "A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell."
Hmm... which spell would it be functioning like... that would be darkvision. It is not functioning as the racial ability. It is functioning as a Spell Like Ability.
So you say because the ability casts darkvision on another creature but has the title Cavesight it's not darkvision. Well, officially you cast (a lesser) Mirror Image on yourself when you cast the SP Domain Ability Copycat. It's not called Mirror Image, but it officially works that way. It's even been called out in a faq that Copycat, which only creates one image, is treated as a second level spell because it's based on the 2nd level spell Mirror Image.
Or do I need to restate everything as an if/then for you?
I'm going to assume you're trying to snag the early entry mystic theurge off of this and go through the problems with that.
. . .
2) Without being the [darkvision spell], its not a wizard spell, so its not an arcane ability its a divine one and won't help.
And the point here would be that one could take three levels of wizard, dip a level of cleric and take the trickster domain and officially you have a 2nd level spell like ability which meets the "Casts 2nd Level Divine Spells" requirement of Mystic Theurge.
The Design Team even admits that it doesn't appear to be too bad.
. . . Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. . . .
No, but you're missing the point:
If there's a spell-like ability called fly, then it functions exactly like the spell, and counts as a 3rd level spell-like ability.
If there's a spell-like ability called flight that grants 60 feet fly speed, with +1 per 2 caster levels to fly skill checks, and has a built in feather fall effect at the end and lasts 1 minute per level on a creature touched, but is obtained at sorcerer level 8, it's a 4th level spell-like ability.
Unfortunately, this is one of those "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it could actually be an illusion of a duck" situations.
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The by that logic, copy cat should not function as a SLA for mirror image which has been officially sited to work.
Based on all of the relevant FAQs, in the current state of the game, cave sight functions as a lesser SLA of the dark vision spell. Since it is a domain power, this is a divine SLA for the purpose of qualifying for feats or prcs.
No, but you're missing the point:
If there's a spell-like ability called fly, then it functions exactly like the spell, and counts as a 3rd level spell-like ability.
If there's a spell-like ability called flight that grants 60 feet fly speed, with +1 per 2 caster levels to fly skill checks, and has a built in feather fall effect at the end and lasts 1 minute per level on a creature touched, but is obtained at sorcerer level 8, it's a 4th level spell-like ability.
Unfortunately, this is one of those "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, it could actually be an illusion of a duck" situations.
Except that the design team has officially ruled that the Copycat ability of the trickster domain is a spell-like ability that duplicates the Mirror Image spell.
So "having the same name" is one condition among many; simply because the name is not the same doesn't mean that it's not appropriate to use, for example, as a prerequisite for the MT prestige class.
What do you consider to be the key differences between cavesight the class ability and darkvision the spell (other than the name, which has been established to be at best partially relevant and not at all dispostive)?
Thank you, Imbicatus and Orfamay Quest.
That was my point. I don't necessarily think that it should be, but that, because of established precedent, that it could be.
Simple:
Darkvision does not grant darkvision.
Cavesight grants darkvision, it does not grant darkvision.
Please note: all spell names, everywhere in the rule books, are italicised (barring errata), except as the headers to the spells themselves. Which means that the argument becomes one of text formatting.
The text of the ability could have explicitly referred to the spell darkvision with a simple text formatting alteration and no additional words required. It doesn't.
. . . The text of the ability could have explicitly referred to the spell darkvision with a simple text formatting alteration and no additional words required. It doesn't.
I would say in this case it doesn't have to.
We have darvision, the EX ability, and we have darkvision, the spell. The spell is based on the ability. Only, as a spell, it has a range and duration where as the EX ability only has the effect.
If a spell like ability "Usually . . . works just like the spell of that name", then there are occasions where it does not, like Copycat.
If Cavesight is a spell like ability, then it "functions just like a spell."
If if functions just like a spell, then we take an effort to find which spell the spell like ability is most like.
If Cavesight functions just like a spell and
If Cavesight has the same range as the darkvision spell (creature touched) and
If Cavesight has the same duration as darkvision spell (1/hour per level) and
If Cavesight can only be bestowed upon a willing creature similar to the darkvision spell (Will save, harmless) and
If Cavesight grants the same effect as darkvision spell (60' of being able to see in the dark)
Then it has less in common with the EX ability which is not magical, has no time limit, cannot be transferred to another creature, cannot be refused, and sometimes has visual ranges differing from 60'.
If it has less in common with the EX ability that functions similarly than the spell which functions similarly, then by virtue of the nature of spell like abilities, it functions as the spell.
I get the feeling you will still disagree.
If you feel so strongly, I would ask why didn't the design team make it an EX ability to more closely link it to the EX ability of the same name. If the answer is, it has to be magic, then why didn't they make it an SU ability. If the answer is it needs to be able to be dispelled, I would ask why. If any of the answers is because spell likes are normally used, then I would say that it's easy to see which spell this spell like is like.
Te'shen: Your not going to convince me that a spell-like ability which doesn't reference a spell should function as a spell. I'm not going to convince you that since it doesn't reference a spell it doesn't function like a spell.
So we could argue for hours, or just agree to disagree.
The reasonableness test: would a non-gamer who wasn't trying to parse the rules as a legal document believe that Cavesight grants use of darkvision as a spell-like ability (albeit with vastly different duration rules), or that it grants darkvision through the mechanism of a spell-like ability?
I believe the latter.
So we could argue for hours, or just agree to disagree.
Fine. Agree to disagree.
The reasonableness test: would a non-gamer . . . believe that Cavesight grants use of darkvision as a spell-like ability (albeit with vastly different duration rules), or that it grants darkvision through the mechanism of a spell-like ability? . . .
After looking at the description of Spell like ability, I think that a majority of new persons would make the jump to darkvision... pardon me... darkvision, because a spell like ability is a "natural" spell.
And that's my opinion. I could be wrong.
Fair enough: that's the whole reason I ever propose the reasonableness test.
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The FAQ says this:
Q: What is the spell level of a Spell-Like Ability that acts as an existing spell, but with some changes?
A: If it cites an existing spell, and you know the spell level of that spell, what effective spell level do you think the spell-like ability is? And if it doesn't cite an existing spell, is there a rule or FAQ telling you how to determine its effective spell level?
-Sean K Reynolds - Designer
Copycat (Sp): You can create an illusory double of yourself as a move action. This double functions as a single Mirror Image and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your cleric level, or until the illusory duplicate is dispelled or destroyed.
Under copycat, it explicitly states that it works as Mirror Image, making this work as per the FAQ. Also take note of the italicization meaning it is referencing the spell itself.
Cavesight does not reference the Darkvision spell. Note the distinct lack of italics. It references Darkvision (the ability to see in the dark), but not the spell.
It would be reasonable for a GM, in my opinion, to let it count as the Darkvision spell in a home game. However, as per RAW with how the FAQ and Cavesight is written, it does not qualify to be covered by the FAQ and does not count as Darkvision.
Something has occurred to me... Let's get into the nuts and bolts.
Of the seven core races available, only two have darkvision (four if you consider the elf and gnome racial substitutions). So that's either 2/7 or 4/7, which is roughly 29% or 57% of available options. Do you consider that common?
If it's a race that already has darkvision, then the only use of the ability is to grant darkvision to a companion, which, lasting only a minute per level, is only useful in combat. How many characters at levels one and two, where the darkvision spell is unavailable, have you seen be caught without a light source?
Torches, Lanterns, and the cantrip Light are all pretty common. Torches can be doused by enemies, but shielded lanterns would be kind of hard to put out. In every movie I've seen, lanterns, when struck by something, tend to set anything in the surrounding area ablaze. Light has the downside of having to be cast fairly often, but it's a cantrip. It's unlimited.
So the only real use for darkvision is having it when somebody else doesn't (for possible sneak attacks and night ambushes). THAT gives you an edge.
Cavesight can be picked up at first level and more than half the available core races can have darkvision at first level. You know Chemlack... You Have Convinced Me. The easiest solution is to errata the darkvision spell to first level. :P
*applauds*
Well played, sir. Well played.