|
I used to play with a guy that told me that natural attacks and weapon attacks can never be done in the same round (unless it is specifically allowed, by, say, a monk or something.) The guy never mentioned the source of the rule and has since moved away, but I always wondered if that was true.
For example, if I have a level 1 half-orc fighter with TWF, and give him the alternate racial trait so he gains a d4 bite attack, can he full attack for three attacks a round? That is, two swords+his bite? I know that it would suck (his attacks would be -2/-2/-5), but is it possible?
|
|
This is completely wrong unless you are a monk using flurry of blows.
Natural attacks and weapon attacks use different rules, but they can be used together in a full attack.
Natural attacks are listed as either primary (at full BAB and STR bonus) or secondary (BAB -5 and .5 STR bonus) If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Natural attacks do not gain iterative attacks. If you have a natural attack and a weapon attack, you can use both attacks, but your natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks if you do.
Monks are an exception to this, as Flurry of Blows prohibits using natural attacks with a flurry.
This is completely wrong unless you are a monk using flurry of blows.
Natural attacks and weapon attacks use different rules, but they can be used together in a full attack.
Natural attacks are listed as either primary (at full BAB and STR bonus) or secondary (BAB -5 and .5 STR bonus) If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Natural attacks do not gain iterative attacks. If you have a natural attack and a weapon attack, you can use both attacks, but your natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks if you do.
Monks are an exception to this, as Flurry of Blows prohibits using natural attacks with a flurry.
This.
And to try to be a bit clearer, using your example a level 1 Half-Orc fighter with bite and TWF with 2 swords.
If he can't full attack he has to choose between 1 hit of his sword OR 1 hit with his Bite with no malus.
If he can full attack he can choose to make his 2 swords attack AND his bite attack but the bite attack is made at -5.
The rule is : If you use 1 or more manufactured weapon attack (unarmed strike is a manufactured weapon) then ALL your other natural attacks are secondary and take -5 to hit.
So you can do manufactured weapon and natural attack in a full round attack albeit with a -5 malus on the natural attacks.
|
|
This is completely wrong unless you are a monk using flurry of blows.
Natural attacks and weapon attacks use different rules, but they can be used together in a full attack.
Natural attacks are listed as either primary (at full BAB and STR bonus) or secondary (BAB -5 and .5 STR bonus) If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls.
Natural attacks do not gain iterative attacks. If you have a natural attack and a weapon attack, you can use both attacks, but your natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks if you do.
Monks are an exception to this, as Flurry of Blows prohibits using natural attacks with a flurry.
Cool, thanks.
Now, to find a way to make Magic Dentures!
Edit: Deleted because I can't read.
|
|
Okay, so second question: Is there a way to make my bite attack worth a darn?
Okay, so I KNOW it will always be at -5, is there some feat to get my full strength bonus to natural attacks? Are there (non-house-ruled) dentures so I can hit creatures that require magic weapons? Any suggestions so that I am mostly wielding two swords, but that my bite can still do something?
Okay, so second question: Is there a way to make my bite attack worth a darn?
Okay, so I KNOW it will always be at -5, is there some feat to get my full strength bonus to natural attacks? Are there (non-house-ruled) dentures so I can hit creatures that require magic weapons? Any suggestions so that I am mostly wielding two swords, but that my bite can still do something?
For the magical bite it's easy : Amulet of Magic Fang (This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.)
For the full FOR bonus I don't know, will look at it...
So for a better bite you should look at Feral Combat Training which let you use unarmed attack feat and augmentation on your natural attack (so instead of buying an amulet of Magic Fang you can enchant your teeth... But it cost a lot of feat for just a bite...
For the -5 I don't think you will found something to get rid of it in a full attack since it's basically a bonus attack making this to easy to touch with will be overpowered for those with more than 3 or 4 natural weapons...
Okay, so second question: Is there a way to make my bite attack worth a darn?
Okay, so I KNOW it will always be at -5, is there some feat to get my full strength bonus to natural attacks? Are there (non-house-ruled) dentures so I can hit creatures that require magic weapons? Any suggestions so that I am mostly wielding two swords, but that my bite can still do something?
No. They will always be at .5 str if you use manufactured weapons. If you want your bite to be magical you can get an amulet of might fist, but then you can't get the amulet of natural armor. Natural attacks are not really good unless your build is focused on them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do note though that if you only have one natural attack, it adds 1.5 STR to damage (and gets 1.5 Power Attack), so long as you aren't attacking with a manufactured weapon in the same round.
So if you're only going to attack with one attack in a round (or making an AoO), unless you're highly specialized in whatever sword you're using, it may be beneficial to make the attack with the bite.
But as you've noticed, getting the ability to overcome DR/Magic as you level up can be difficult. It works fine if you're building around it (you can take feats or get items to deal with that issue), but the methods of overcoming the DR aren't worth it if you're not focusing as wraithstrike mentioned.
Just be satisfied with the ability to possibly do a little bit of extra damage on rounds when you full attack. If it's not a focus of your build, then it's just icing on the cake when it actually does work.
|
|
Okay, last question, I swear: do effects from manufactured weapon attacks carry over to natural attacks? For example:
A fifth level 2-weapon warrior (a fighter archetype) gets +1 to hit and damage to all attacks on rounds where he full-round attacks with two weapons. It doesn't say bonuses to WEAPON attacks, or THOSE ATTACKS just (attacks). Other examples include pummeling style and cluster shot (if you somehow had a natural ranged attack.)
At 5th level, a two-weapon warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full attack with two weapons or a double weapon. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
When you are attacking with a natural attack you are not attacking with a weapon.
Okay, last question, I swear: do effects from manufactured weapon attacks carry over to natural attacks? For example:
A fifth level 2-weapon warrior (a fighter archetype) gets +1 to hit and damage to all attacks on rounds where he full-round attacks with two weapons. It doesn't say bonuses to WEAPON attacks, or THOSE ATTACKS just (attacks). Other examples include pummeling style and cluster shot (if you somehow had a natural ranged attack.)
I don't know this Archetype (the Two-Weapon Figheter archetype does not give this) but I would say : if it's not defined as applying only to Weapon Damages or Manufactured Attacks then it shiould apply to your natural attack as well... But since a can't read the precise class entry I cannot say for sure...
|
|
At 5th level, a two-weapon warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full attack with two weapons or a double weapon. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.When you are attacking with a natural attack you are not attacking with a weapon.
I was just confused because, as a linguist, I recognize that the sentence can be diagrammed and parsed two different ways. It is unclear and could mean:
When making a full attack with two weapons, those weapons gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.
OR
When making a full attack with two weapons, all attacks gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.
Now, don't get me wrong, it is pretty clear what RAI are. But the thing is, pathfinder (and in particular PFS) are very big into RAW and they don't give a flying whatever about what the intent of the rules was.
Now, don't get me wrong, it is pretty clear what RAI are. But the thing is, pathfinder (and in particular PFS) are very big into RAW and they don't give a flying whatever about what the intent of the rules was.
That is not true. PFS goes by RAI. If RAI is not clear then it resorts to RAW.
Example:
Shield Master (Combat)
Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it without hindrance.Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.
Strict RAW means you can use power attack which has its own penalties aside from TWF and you wont take the penalties, but RAI is that it is referring to the penalties from TWF'ing. You can try to pull that at someone's table, but don't expect them to honor it. And if you go to the PFS forum, and try to get Mike Brock to help you out, that wont happen either.
RAW gets really silly when used out of context, and the game is very hard to play that way.
At 5th level, a two-weapon warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full attack with two weapons or a double weapon. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.When you are attacking with a natural attack you are not attacking with a weapon.I was just confused because, as a linguist, I recognize that the sentence can be diagrammed and parsed two different ways. It is unclear and could mean:
When making a full attack with two weapons, those weapons gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.
OR
When making a full attack with two weapons, all attacks gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.
Now, don't get me wrong, it is pretty clear what RAI are. But the thing is, pathfinder (and in particular PFS) are very big into RAW and they don't give a flying whatever about what the intent of the rules was.
If it's any consolation, the two-weapon warrior is a terrible archetype for PFS. It trades away way too much at the earlier levels and doesn't start to get good until at least level 9. PFS stops at level 12.
(I think it's a terrible archetype overall, but opinions vary. Trading out always-useful stuff like armor training and weapon training for situational bonuses never seems like a good deal, to me.)
If you want to do a two-weapon fighter with a natural attack, you might look at the Ranger Natural Weapon combat style.
|
|
Now, don't get me wrong, it is pretty clear what RAI are. But the thing is, pathfinder (and in particular PFS) are very big into RAW and they don't give a flying whatever about what the intent of the rules was.That is not true. PFS goes by RAI. If RAI is not clear then it resorts to RAW.
Example:
SNIP SNIP
Strict RAW means you can use power attack which has its own penalties aside from TWF and you wont take the penalties, but RAI is that it is referring to the penalties from TWF'ing. You can try to pull that at someone's table, but don't expect them to honor it. And if you go to the PFS forum, and try to get Mike Brock to help you out, that wont happen either.RAW gets really silly when used out of context, and the game is very hard to play that way.
I see your point. Sure, that's true. But I raise you this issue with the halfling sling-staff (which I started another thread on, and I'm not trying to have and argument about here, just was the first thing that came to mind.)
Warslinger Halflings are experts at the use of the sling. Halflings with this racial trait can reload a sling as a free action. Reloading a sling still requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity. This racial trait replaces sure-footed.
-Advanced Race guide
Pretty sure this was intended to work with the halfling racial weapon, the sling-staff, but NOPE! They ruled with RAW at this point:
Halfling, Warslinger: What kind of slings does the this reload ability work with?
The warslinger ability says, "Halflings with this racial trait can reload a sling as a free action." It doesn't say "any type of sling" or "all slings," just "a sling." The ability only affects standard slings, not halfling sling staffs or any other kind of sling.
-Advanced Race guide FAQ
-EDIT: Ack, too many people responding!
If it's any consolation, the two-weapon warrior is a terrible archetype for PFS. It trades away way too much at the earlier levels and doesn't start to get good until at least level 9. PFS stops at level 12.
(I think it's a terrible archetype overall, but opinions vary. Trading out always-useful stuff like armor training and weapon training for situational bonuses never seems like a good deal, to me.)
If you want to do a two-weapon fighter with a natural attack, you might look at the Ranger Natural Weapon combat style.
Yes, but he gets one very important thing, the ability to dual wield 1-handed weapons with a -2/-2 instead of a -4/-4. Anyway, I was just looking into the build. I agree it is sub-optimal.
I was not arguing, just mentioning a point. :)