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In the early/intermediate stages of coming up with a scratch necromancer base class that matches what I want in a true necromancer, and I'd love some feedback to help talk it out into something workable.
Basic Tennants of my Ideal Necromancer:
1) Aracane, Spontaneous
This is a class where power comes from study and personal power, not religious devotion and submission. Its about knowing what you want and gaining the power to reach out and take it for yourself, not praying to a god to just hand it to you. I also am more fond of the idea that once you know how to do something, you know how to do it. No vancian here.
2) Partial Caster
I would want to limit the overall caster power of the class, as ideally it should revolve around what makes it special and unique instead of just constantly getting more and more powerful spells like a wizard/sorcerer does.
3) Horde Combat
The primary form of combat should be through the use of undead hordes. I'd like to see this as a class feature instead of just a spell known (even if automatically known) just so it can be better tailored to the class. Would basically be a Summon Undead type system that they can convert spells into, much like a cleric converting spells into Healing, or some other form of flexible resource.
4) Soul Reaping
Part of what I consider a good necromancer is the ability to benefit from the deaths of their victims. The ability to take the life force of one being and use it in some form. Possibly tie it into the horde summoning? Perhaps instead of having it as simple as summoning style spells, the necromancer could have a hitdice pool per day, which they could augment by killing other creatures. You kill X hitdice worth of living opponent, you add X hitdice to the pool you draw from to summon more undead.
5) Becoming Undead
Like the Dread Necromancer from WotC, I think the path and capstone ability of becoming a Lich is a nice idea, and steadily increasing resistances and immunities would be a good way to fill dead leavels.
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Without going into a full rough build yet, I'd like to try working out the abilities, see if I can get some input on them, then can work out how to spread them out as we go.
Base Abilities
Hitdice: d8
BAB: Medium
Saves: Will strong
Spells per Day: As Bard
Skillpoints: 4 + Int
Armor Prof: Light armor, but not shields. Necromancers do not suffer arcane spell failure from wearing light armor.
Weapon Prof: All simple plus one martial melee weapon of choice
Explanation: Key part of the visual appeal of a necromancer IMO is the intimidating armor, so I want them to be able to wear armor. Same with carrying an intimidating weapon beyond just a wizard staff. Ability to wear armor, carry a melee weapon, and restricted casting means bard like hitdice and combat abilities.
They're not as skillful as Bards, but I'd want them to be able to keep up on at least Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy, and a flavor skill as core skills, so 4 seems to be the right amount there.
Would have a custom spell list, mostly necromancy spells, things that are thematically appropriate, etc.
Primary Abilities
Summon Undead:
Spread out across a standard I-IX grouping like Summon Monster, with CR appropriate undead to summon at each stage. Unlike normal summoning spells though, the limit is the number of hitdice they can summon per day. So if they had 4 hitdice of undead they could summon, they could bring up a single ogre skeleton, or they could bring up 4 human skeletons. Undead that are more powerful than their hitdice would otherwise indicate could simply have their summoning hitdice cost adjusted (so say a skeleton with 1 HD that has a template that gives it +1 CR could cost 2 HD to summon). Follows basic summoning rules (1 round per level, etc).
Touch of Death:
To start with, would give +1d4 negative energy damage to unarmed attacks. As the levels increase, it would gain +1 to +5 damage. At some fairly early point have the base damage increase to 1d6, and allow the ToD to be applied through a melee weapon at a reduced 1d4 base damage.
Well of Souls:
The number of hitdice the necromancer can summon per day. Start it out low and increase it based on level. Your Well of Souls resets to base value after 8 hours of rest. Keep the overall amount fairly low though, as it can be refilled by...
Soul Reaping:
Any living creature that dies the same round it has taken damage from Touch of Death transfers it's hitdice into the Well of Souls. At early levels, it could be say 1/2 hitdice, then as level increases it bumps up to full hitdice. This will encourage the necromancer to actually get out there participate in combat with his armor and hitpoints, as well as give him an incentive to kill. Good (relatively speaking) necros might only use this on things that attack them, while evil necros would be the kind slaughtering an entire village just to power themselves up.
Embrace of the Grave:
Necro's body begins taking on the qualities of a Lich, gaining DR, magic resistance, etc. Capstone would be fully transforming into a Lich without paying for the process or having a level adjustment as the power was spread out across leveling as a class feature.
Minor Abilities
Things to potentially round out dead levels or in case the overall power of the class seems a little low. Wouldn't all make it in, but stuff to think about.
Command Undead:
Minor ability but manditory, IMO. Doesn't channel negative energy like a cleric, but perhaps could burn hitdice from Well of Souls to make the attempt. Say at a cost of 1/2 the hitdice of the undead you are attempting to command to make the attempt (which can fail, and you've still spent the hitdice for the day), and later have it scale up to being able to burn an equal amount of hitdice for a no save command? Essentially half the cost of summoning it yourself to make the attempt, or pay the full cost to summon the same thing to enslave it outright with no chance of failure?
Soul Drinking:
Convert hitdice from your Well of Souls into healing for the necromancer. Say 1 hp per hitdice spent? Wouldn't be something the necromancer would want to do if they could get healing from other means, but when the chips are down being able to rebuild the body from the souls of your victims sounds very necromancerish to me.
Fear Aura:
Once per round as a swift action cause anything in a 5' radius to make a will save DC 10 + 1/2 necro level + Cha mod or become Shaken.
Undead Master:
Summoned or created undead gain a bonus to strength/dexterity and hitpoints. Say start at +2 Strength and Dex with +1 hp per hitdice at start, and then later scale it to +4 and +2/hitdice.
Horde Lord:
When creating permanent undead via animate/create undead, the total number of hitdice of undead you can control is 4 + Cha mod per level, instead of just plain 4 per level.
Efficient Animation:
When casting spells such as animate dead or create undead, the gold cost of the material components is halved.
Create Greater Undead:
With spell level capping at 6th, the necromancer wouldn't normally be able to cast Create Greater Undead. Just flat out give the ability to cast it to them as a class ability.
Potential Necro Only Spell Ideas
Create Soul Gem:
Duration of 1 minute/level or until activated, next time you use Soul Reaping, the hitdice that would normally be added to your Well of Souls are instead transferred to a gem worth at least X gp per hitdice stored, which then becomes a Soul Gem. Any hitdice over the value of the gem are lost. As a swift action, you may transfer all of the stored hitdice into your Well of Souls. Using the stored hitdice burns out the gem leaving nothing but a valueless black stone.
Master's Touch:
Duration of 1 round/level, 1 + cha mod undead under your control (minimum of 1) gain the benefit from your Touch of Death ability, and can trigger Soul Reaping.
I like where you seem to be going with this, but I'll have to see an actual write-up to give a critique. Most of the suggestions I would make you are already addressing. take some cues from the summoner class for summoning and creating undead, so keep that separate from spell casting.
Okay, went ahead and took a swing at a full build.
Went ahead and threw in just about everything I could think of. I figure it will be easier to overshoot and then scale back than it would be to undershoot and have to come up with more.
Pure Necromancer on Google Drive
Things that are currently missing:
Spell list (basically going to start with all the necromancy spells and then edit form there).
Summon Undead creatures (will be a good selection of various CR appropriate undead, based off the CRs of equal level Summon Monster spells).
Well of Souls values (that will likely be the hard part to get balanced).
Hitdice per Summons (will simply be the highest hitdice of a single creature for that level, so if Summon Undead III's ogre skeleton turns out to be the highest hitdice at 4, then Summon Undead III will let you summon up to 4 hitdice per cast).
I'm working on a Reanimator much akin to the Necromancer class from Guild Wars - basically subsumes the physicality to create undead masses of flesh, muscle and bone which doesn't really work with Souls, though I think your Soul Reaping is much more palatable for folks interested in cosmological consistency.
I would echo Ciaran Barnes in looking to the Summoner - not just for the SLA but also for the armor and weapon profs - either way, Bard or Summoner will work there. I do like the addition of one martial weapon to beef up your melee aspect...
I like your basic tenets and design path approach - my Reanimator is not on an undead path personally (though see the Ossuarite druid archetype from Forest Guardian Press - they definitely are) and will use any recently dead, regardless of who killed it. I'm also pretty staunch on removing ethical principles/alignment from interfering with the use of undead.
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cool idea!
go with Scythe and Sickle. This guy is a harvester.
also i would cast off of Wisdom, not Charisma. 2E necros needed WIS as I remember. That way there could be diversity/madness in the class kind of like how cleric casts of WIS but channels off CHA.
Well of Souls/Soul Reaping - i would model this ability after Grit to cut down the math. you could tie it to his Aura too. somebody within his Aura die? reap 1 Soul. the presence of points in this pool creates the fear effects. this ability could be CHA based. also, possibly the Summon I-IX spells draw from here?
add an ability that if someone dies, and the Necromancer 'summons' then specifically, they rise right there into a dominated super zombie? this could be a horrible higher level ability.
Touch of Death - i would base this ability in the Well of Souls pool and give greater effects (for greater cost) as level increase. like enervation with no save.
Embrace the Grave - how about 1 DR per 2 levels for simplicity?
consider creating a line of talents (Dark Arts?) that hit every odd level starting with 3rd. this is where i would lodge the option for weapon interaction with Touch of death for example (Death Blade?). lots of potential here. you could even borrow some of the nasties from Alchemist...
just throwing out ideas.
I'll echo the call to use Summoner as a guide for the Spell-Like Ability. Sine the Spell-Like Ability advances faster than the normal spellcasting, you can use this to give you abilities that would otherwise be out of reach. You can also adjust the spell list to give early entry on key spells such as Create Greater Undead (the Summoner does this too with the Summon Monster series and a few other spells).
I would also like to eventually see Summoner-inspired specialists for the other Schools of Magic as well.
To make the class more generally usable (especially in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting), have Pro-Undead and Anti-Undead Alternate Class versions or Archetypes. The Pro-Undead version would create Undead and eventually become a Lich as you describe; the Anti-Undead version would turn and destroy Undead and eventually become an Anti-Undead Outsider.
Imho, you can just roll a Sanguine Sorcerer and then go Agent of the Grave for exactly what you want, using all official stuff.
I guess i have no problems with your guild just your premises of what you call a Necromancer. Whats to stop a undead hunter who would be better severed than a necromancer himself in this role. Not all Necromancers are evil. I guess if you look at it as ever necromancer in your world is evil its a mood point but i would build the class or let me say a necromancer in a way that someone can be neutral or even good and still be a necromancer. After all who would make better healers then necros. Just my little rant. It shouldn't effect your build tho.
Tho i would say necromancers would be bookworms and more casters then melee so i disagree with you on them not being full casters. Also give him some means of taking over a corpse and letting it be a supsatute for him looking like him, acting like him with all his powers so he can use that in place to do his fighting and hunting while he sits in safety.
Imho, you can just roll a Sanguine Sorcerer and then go Agent of the Grave for exactly what you want, using all official stuff.
Actually:
A: You can't, and
B: that isn't the point of this thread and
C: "Official" stuff isn't always a necessary requirement.
A Sanguine Sorceror can gain HP from the recently dead, not use a Soul Reaping effect to harness the souls of creatures you have personally killed in battle. I would say looking at Agent of the Grave is a good idea for Endymnion, but it doesn't quite achieve the same concept or theme. A heftier battle-ready necromancer. Plus, it's a Prestige Class, and won't come online for what, 5 levels?
As rainzax said, the point of this thread is to provide feedback on a Homebrewed concept that does exactly what Endymion desires from Endymion's idea of a Necromancer.
Just because something is "official" doesn't mean it is balanced or desirable in every situation.
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After all who would make better healers then necros.
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That USED TO BE true, but in 3rd Edition D&D (I don't think it was before -- certainly not in 1st Edition), Necromancy spells that did healing were all changed into Conjuration(Healing) for some bizarre reason. Not sure why -- Necromancy seems a perfectly appropriate description for magic that accelerates healing and/or removes unwholesome effects on one's life energy. The changeover of the healing spells of Necromancy actually worsened the stereotype of all Necromancy being evil, because it removed all possibility for Necromancy to do anything beneficial directly, except for False Life and related spells that just give you a temporary buffer against being damaged. It also made the Necromancy School of Magic even smaller than it already was, compared to the other Schools of Magic (not that this makes all that big a difference for Wizards, who ordinarily can't directly cast healing spells anyway, and for whom Necromancy specialization is among the most restrictive of all the Arcane School specialization).
If I had input into making another edition of the D&D family of games, I would recommend kicking all (or at least almost all) of the Conjuration(Healing) spells back into the School of Necromancy, where they belong.
Would spells that restore the dead to life be necromancy or conjuration? It may depend if you are simply restoring the corpse or recalling the spirit. Needless complication probably.
Would spells that restore the dead to life be necromancy or conjuration? It may depend if you are simply restoring the corpse or recalling the spirit. Needless complication probably.
I don't think this is needless complicatoria at all Ciaran. I think restoring the dead to life is simply necromancy.
BUT
Here's an interesting thing (at least to me): the animate objects spell seems like it could be used to "animate" a skeleton-full of bones, which would not be undead. Animating bones to have a "semblance of life" is different to animate dead which gives bones unlife. Animate objects is a transmutation spell.
My Reanimator approach restores flesh and sinew in a new amalgamated fleshy-sinewy form using the dead creatures bits. It does not recall the spirit. Which is why I mentioned the cosmological consistency - I see no need for souls or gods like Pharasma getting involved with reanimation - mostly because I don't work specifically with Golarion and as a non-spiritualist IRL I don't empathise with the whole "soul" concept.
@Endymnion - sorry for the threadjack, this is a topic of some interest to me.
cool idea!
go with Scythe and Sickle. This guy is a harvester.
Definitely thematic for the class, but I would allow Necromancers the choice of any one martial weapon as well to not restrict them to any particular trope/theme...
...also i would cast off of Wisdom, not Charisma. 2E necros needed WIS as I remember. That way there could be diversity/madness in the class kind of like how cleric casts of WIS but channels off CHA.
Personally I see Charisma working better actually - force of a dark personality keeping the Necromancer's undead in line.
Well of Souls/Soul Reaping - i would model this ability after Grit to cut down the math. you could tie it to his Aura too. somebody within his Aura die? reap 1 Soul. the presence of points in this pool creates the fear effects. this ability could be CHA based. also, possibly the Summon I-IX spells draw from here?
Excellent idea. Definitely in favor of pools (see: Direlock). Especially if any fear effects become more potent the more your Well is full - that way you can expend your Well pool to make minions, or keep it full to be fearsome.
consider creating a line of talents (Dark Arts?) that hit every odd level starting with 3rd. this is where i would lodge the option for weapon interaction with Touch of death for example (Death Blade?). lots of potential here. you could even borrow some of the nasties from Alchemist...
Another fantastic idea, especially if these draw on the pool/grit a la Magus.