I am surrently playing the evil campaign Way of the Wicked.
In preparation for Book 3 I am working out some combats, and I have some issue with the final encounter. It is a Monadic Deva, advanced to CR 16.
The 4 CR advancement only gave it 4 more Hit Dice. Seems to be off according to my interpretation of the Monster advancement section of the PRD.
Thhere it seems I would need to add 80 HP (from 12-16) implying I'd add 8 HD. But then I'd end up with many more HD than the Planetar (also CR 16, though with higher spellcasting ability).
Question to you:
How would you advance a Monadic Deva to CR 16?
Well, I probably would add more Monadic Devas to the combat rather than trying to make one really powerful. Single enemies tend to go down like wet noodles because of action economy.
Instead, consider 4 Monadic Devas (all CR 12) which by the math of CR should be a CR 16 challenge. I'm willing to bet this would be far more challenging to a party than 1 combatant who is a CR 16 on their own. I would still probably end up maximizing their health (monster usually have average hp rolls) and possibly add the advanced simple template. This would technically cause the encounter to be a CR 17 or 18, but if your party is optimized I have found that maximizing hp and adding the Advanced Simple Template to enemies usually puts the creatures at about the right power.
CR isn't an exact science and is more a guideline. I find it easier to prepare monsters that are morepowerfult than needed as I can more easily remove the bonuses without the players noticing than I can add them in.
Well, I probably would add more Monadic Devas to the combat rather than trying to make one really powerful. Single enemies tend to go down like wet noodles because of action economy.
Instead, consider 4 Monadic Devas (all CR 12) which by the math of CR should be a CR 16 challenge. I'm willing to bet this would be far more challenging to a party than 1 combatant who is a CR 16 on their own. I would still probably end up maximizing their health (monster usually have average hp rolls) and possibly add the advanced simple template. This would technically cause the encounter to be a CR 17 or 18, but if your party is optimized I have found that maximizing hp and adding the Advanced Simple Template to enemies usually puts the creatures at about the right power.
CR isn't an exact science and is more a guideline. I find it easier to prepare monsters that are morepowerfult than needed as I can more easily remove the bonuses without the players noticing than I can add them in.
Four CR 13 Monadic Deva would indeed be a CR 17 encounter, and at some other time would be interesting. However, the AP wants one bad-ass angel as a final boss.
Though I have considered making a it a Brother-Sister combo, I am also interested in how, according to the rules you would advance a monster, because I have the feeling the author of the AP might have gotten it wrong.
He figured: a normal Monadic Deva is CR 12 with 14 HD. A 16 CR would then also be CR+2=18 HD.
Personally, using http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterAdvancement.html I think it would end up more like at 22 HD, but I might be wrong.
Anyway, anybody that can shed light on how to use these tables?
Give them some minions to enhance their action economy profile. Really. It changes everything.
This said, CR16 enounters and boss fights are the devil to run. Good luck with that.
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The hit dice stuffs written table like they say, it's not exact or correct, depending on the type of monsters resistances, abilities etc...
I mean the basic Monadic deva is cr 12 with 14 hd instead of 16 HD. So it's already not following the standard hd for its cr because of the spellcasting it got. It's not wrong if you consider that the changes in cr for outsider is a bit random going from 1 hd increasing cr, to 2 hd increasing cr randomly.
The less ambigeous way to advance the deva would be with class levels, giving the monadic deva fighter levels, you would only need 4 fighters level to make it a cr 16...which at the end of the day is not going to change anything, still 18 hd, d10. Only issue if you add class levels, you are going to add more stats to the angel which might be a bit too difficult for your players but up to you.
I advance monsters with Class levels and templates.
Skillfully chosen to cover weaknesses and boost strengths they can make a big boss still work as a relative solo. Also toss some minions in.
The Brother Sister combo would probably work.
I treat 2-headed monsters like Ettiins as 1 NPC per head.
That helps with action economy.
! head cast spells the other fights
I understand and it is good advice.
Yet, I am asking how the specific rules on adding Racial HD work:
If I follow the table on monster advancement:
From CR12 to CR16 I would add 80 HP.
Seeing how the Monadic Deva has 5.5 HP per hit die, + 5 from con/toughness, I guess that in order to add 80 hp I would add 8 HD, right? (80/10.5 per HD= 7.6 HD increase).
Yet, seeing how I'd increase my HD by more than 50% I would also grow large: Giving me +8 strength and +4 Con.
The +4 con would then make me get 12.5 HP per level (rather than 10.5). If I would need to get to 227 HP in that scenario I would have to have 227/12.5=18.16 HD (meaning I only add 4 HD).
But if I only add 4 HD I would not get the size increase, meaning I'd need more HD, meaning I'd get a bigger size and would need less HD (infinite loop-style).
So, how does it work?
Now, I understand that the table for Monster Advancement is not a 100% fit and it is not an exact science. Yet, I find the 'rules' difficult to say least.
I still wonder if this is how it works or if I'd need to do something else?
Why not just go with it.
Give em the added hit dice. Give them above average hit points per hit die, maybe not max, but above average, certainly. Monsters need more hit points, especially in a boss fight.
Give em the advantages of increased size in addition to all the hit dice you want to give em.
Players who are that level have *loads* of resources, and will win anyway. But a tough enemy will make winning feel so much more satisfying.
Also, give the boss some minions, even mediocre ones, to make for a more viable shot at the action economy.
In fairness, the PCs will be at level 12, making this a APL + 4 encounter against 4 PCs:
- Fighter (Archery, Ouch)
- 2-hander Inquisitor
- rogue 3/Wizard/Arcane Trickster 6
- Level 12 Cleric (Trickery and Evil Domains)
- Any CCohort they elect to bring along (are some around in the AP)
I have read that the fight as posted in the AP was... Easy. Mostly I think the advancement was done wrong, but it also suffers from the single boss and action economy problem.
I might make it a 20 HD large Monadic Deva in order to provide some clout.
Actually, D20pfsrd has a monster builder letting you advance. According to that 8 HD would indeed provide the +4 CR increase. It would also make for a Huge Angel (which I think is wrong, it should be Large in that case), but I can always deduct 8 trength and 4 Con and add +1 to spell DCs to compensate I guess.
Here is what it comes up with:
Monadic Deva ( +8HD ) CR 16
XP 76800
NG Huge outsider (angel, aquatic, extraplanar, good)
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect evil, low-light vision; Perception +29
Aura protective aura
DEFENSE
AC 33, touch 10, flat-footed 31 (+2 Dex, +23 natural +4 deflection vs. evil, -2 size)
hp 330 (22d10+209)
Fort +19, Ref +11, Will +10; +4 vs. poison+4 resistance vs. evil
DR 10/evil; Immune acid, cold, electricity, fire, death effects, energy drain, petrification; SR 23;
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 90 ft. (good)
Melee +3 morningstar +33/+28/+23 (2d8+18 plus solid blow)
Space 15 ft.Reach 15 ft.
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +14) Constant-detect evil At will-aid, charm monster (DC 18, elementals only), discern lies (DC 18), dispel evil (DC 19), dispel magic, holy smite (DC 18), invisibility (self only), plane shift (DC 19), remove curse, remove disease, remove fear 3/day-cure serious wounds, holy word (DC 21), mirror image 1/day-heal, hold monster (DC 18), holy aura (DC 22)
STATISTICS
Str 39, Dex 15, Con 26, Int 19, Wis 18, Cha 19;
Base Atk 19; CMB 24; CMD 38
Feats Alertness, Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness
Skills Diplomacy +21, Fly +25, Intimidate +21, Knowledge (planes) +21, Knowledge (religion) +21, Perception +29, Sense Motive +25, Stealth +21, Survival +21, Swim +20; Racial Modifiers +4 Perception
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; truespeech
ECOLOGY
Environment any good-aligned plane
Organization solitary, pair, or squad (3-6)
Treasure double (+3 morningstar, other treasure)
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Solid Blow (Su) If a monadic deva strikes an opponent twice in 1 round with its mace, that creature takes an extra 1d8+10 points of damage.
Source: PFRPG Bestiary 2