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I know that there's a lot up in the air right now with the Pummeling Style feat. Most of that seems to revolve around which weapons can be used with it though. I'm curious how sneak attack works with PS (assume unarmed strikes with Improved Unarmed Strike for simplicity... so we don't cross-thread topics).
1) Let's say you're in flank and use Pummeling Style. Does 'Normal Damage' count sneak attack damage? AKA, at best can I sneak attack only once (single hit) or multiple times (multiple sub-hits/punches)?
2) Changing that a bit... what if I'm not in flank but have Invisibility on me (or otherwise snuck up to the target)? On a normal full attack in this case, only the first attack would have sneak attack damage applied. What about with Pummeling Style? Are all attacks made against flat-footed AC? And if so then, would each be able to apply sneak? (This is of course only valid if the answer to question 1 is "multiple times" rather than "once", otherwise it's mostly a moot point.)
1) You get Sneak Attack damage on each hit, because it's the attack that does extra damage, and you're making multiple attacks. If Sneak Attack said "when the rogue does damage to an enemy blah blah blah" then it would be only one Sneak Attack per pummel, but it says "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime blah blah blah." So, each attack should deal extra damage.
2) By the same logic, if you have Invisibility on then only one attack is versus flat-footed, and you only get Sneak Attack once. Once you make the first attack, you break Invisibility. The damage from the attacks gets added, but they are still separate attacks. At least that's how I read it.
I think it's all supposed to be one attack:
Quote: Benefit: As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack. For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage, adding it to any damage the attack has already dealt from previous rolls (if any). If any of the attack rolls are critical threats, make one confirmation roll for the entire attack at your highest base attack bonus. If it succeeds, the entire attack is a confirmed critical hit. Isn't it?
I think you're right, I definitely missed the "one devastating punch" part. It actually does look like it counts as one single attack.
So, scratch what I wrote earlier. Sneak Attack should count once, and all rolls would benefit from Invisibility.
You'd think with a name like "Pummeling Style" it would be a lot of separate punches, but I guess that's not how it's supposed to work. Poorly named IMO because pummel literally means "to strike repeatedly."
The idea, I believe, is that you're rapidly hitting all your blows in one spot, 'pummeling' it. Similar to clustering your shots with Clustered Shots for arrows.
But then why would it say "one devastating punch"?
Because it is treated as one attack, just like clustered shots. The idea is that DR (for example) cannot protect from the numerous blows rapidly impacting at the same spot anymore than they could against a single attack.
DrakeRoberts wrote: Because it is treated as one attack, just like clustered shots. The idea is that DR (for example) cannot protect from the numerous blows rapidly impacting at the same spot anymore than they could against a single attack. Now it sounds like you're arguing that you do get a sneak attack on each blow.
Nope. No argument of the sort. I was explaining why the feat is named such, to my understanding, and no more. Mechanically, as one attack I would expect that sneak attack would only apply once. That said, the clause "For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage.." has me unsure. Is sneak attack part of the 'normal' damage, or not? If not, what about things like a swashbuckler's precision damage, or other damage bonuses to your hits. I don't know as there's really a difference (other than the flatfooted/flank requirement) between the +1d6 sneak attack damage and say, +1d6 fire from a flaming weapon. I would expect a flaming weapon to be added as 'normal damage' so I become unsure about sneak now. And if sneak is a part of normal damage and applied multiple times... then what then about question 2?
The fluff of the feat describes it a one wild punch. It could be Kirk's Shat-fu double hammer fist, a superman flying punch, or a FALCON PUNCH, but it's one hit.
Glad I found this thread as I was about to post the same question. On one hand, it seems like you add sneak attack dice once as it's fluffed as a single attack, but on the other hand the "normal amount of damage" wording makes it sound like you roll sneak attack multiple times.
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Imbicatus wrote: The fluff of the feat describes it a one wild punch. It could be Kirk's Shat-fu double hammer fist, a superman flying punch, or a FALCON PUNCH, but it's one hit. Honestly I figured it was more like a Kugi Punch than those.
Imbicatus wrote: The fluff of the feat describes it a one wild punch. It could be Kirk's Shat-fu double hammer fist, a superman flying punch, or a FALCON PUNCH, but it's one hit. The fluff of the feat has no bearing on the mechanics.
The mechanics, however, specify one punch, therefore, sneak attack only applies once. It also says 'apply the normal damage', which would not include 'extra damage' like sneak attack.
Rynjin wrote: Imbicatus wrote: The fluff of the feat describes it a one wild punch. It could be Kirk's Shat-fu double hammer fist, a superman flying punch, or a FALCON PUNCH, but it's one hit. Honestly I figured it was more like a Kugi Punch than those. eyyy, toriko reference!
I'm on the fence. "For each roll that is a hit, you deal the normal amount of damage" I'd think that "normal amount of damage" refers to how much damage you would deal if you hit them as part of a full-attack, meaning sneak attack would apply to each hit. Though "normal" is poor wording. Clustered Shots is multiple attacks, so it's simple. Dead Shot tells you exactly what does or doesn't get added after each successful attack roll, so it's also relatively simple. Pummeling Style isn't so clear.
DrakeRoberts wrote: I know that there's a lot up in the air right now with the Pummeling Style feat. Most of that seems to revolve around which weapons can be used with it though. I'm curious how sneak attack works with PS (assume unarmed strikes with Improved Unarmed Strike for simplicity... so we don't cross-thread topics).
1) Let's say you're in flank and use Pummeling Style. Does 'Normal Damage' count sneak attack damage? AKA, at best can I sneak attack only once (single hit) or multiple times (multiple sub-hits/punches)?
2) Changing that a bit... what if I'm not in flank but have Invisibility on me (or otherwise snuck up to the target)? On a normal full attack in this case, only the first attack would have sneak attack damage applied. What about with Pummeling Style? Are all attacks made against flat-footed AC? And if so then, would each be able to apply sneak? (This is of course only valid if the answer to question 1 is "multiple times" rather than "once", otherwise it's mostly a moot point.)
even though it says its treated as one attack, I'm going with sneak attack along with all other damage dice are added normally, because it says normal damage, meaning to me, if the attack in that situation would deal sneak attack damage, or added dice because of weapon properties, ect that would be normal. otherwise you get into questions like; if precision damage isnt normal, then why is strength, or power attack. I think it was worded as normal to distinguish itself from other game mechanics such as vital strike.
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