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I'm helping a young teenagle player finalize her character. She's playing a sylph rogue that likes to hide in shadows, disguise herself as human, and use a bow. She's joining the group in Daggermark, a town with a school for assassins.
I've already grabbed these traits for her to look at:
The vessel between ( daggermark regional): the assassin ushers her victims from the kingdom of the living to the kingdom of the dead. You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls that would deal sneak attack damage on a hit.
Magical Talent (Magic): Either from inborn talent, a whimsy of the gods, or obsessive study of strange tomes, you have mastered the use of a cantrip. Choose a 0-level spell. You may cast that spell once per day as a spell-like ability. This spell-like ability is cast at your highest caster level gained; if you have no caster level, it functions at CL 1st. The spell like ability’s save DC is Charisma based. I was thinking of Mage Hand here, which has a duration of concentration, and might be fun for her.
Strong Swimmer (follower of Gozreh, Religious): Your faith in Gozreh’s grace gives you the confidence to swim without fear. You gain a +2 trait bonus on all Swim checks, and can hold your breath for an extra two rounds when underwater.
Sea-Souled (Regional: Coastline or Island): You are at home at sea. You receive a +1 trait bonus on Swim checks, and you can always take 10 while Swimming.
Corpse Hunter (follower of Pharasma, Religious): You have dedicated yourself to the destruction of undead, and receive a +1 trait bonus on all attacks made against undead.
Canter: You grew up among thieves and scoundrels, and their unusual speech patterns and turns of phrase don’t faze you in the slightest today as a result. Anyone who attempts to use Bluff to deliver a secret message to you gains a +5 bonus on his Bluff check. When you attempt to intercept a secret message using Sense Motive, you gain a +5 trait bonus on the attempt.
Adopted (by humans):
Auspicious Tattoo (Race, Human) - +1 bonus on Will saves.
Adopted (by dwarves):
Grounded (Race, Dwarf) - +2 bonus on balance-related Acrobatics checks, and a +1 bonus on Reflex saves. A great Dwarf trait. A flat bonus to Reflex, and a bonus on Acrobatics for icing.
Adopted (by dwarves):
Glory of Old (Dwarf) - +1 bonus on saves against spells, spell-like abilities, and poison. Holy cow. This is a nice trait. A straight bonus on saves against 3 of the worse things to get hit with. This affects both divine and arcane. And poison to boot.
Anatomist (Combat): you have studied the workings of anatomy, either as a student at university or as an apprentice mortician or necromancer. You know where to aim your blows to strike vital organs, and you gain a +1 trait bonus on all rolls made to confirm critical hits.
Resilient (Combat) Growing up in a poor neighborhood or in the unforgiving wilds often forced you to subsist on food and water from doubtful sources. You’ve built up your mettle as a result, and gain a +1 trait bonus on Fortitude saves.
Harvester: You were trained to harvest all parts of an animal with care and precision. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Profession (tanner) or Profession (trapper) checks, and you may make these checks as if you were trained in the skill even if you have no ranks. Additionally, you do not risk poisoning yourself whenever you handle or apply poison taken from a venomous creature.
Ordinary (social): The only thing extraordinary about your appearance is its ordinariness. You carry yourself in an understated way, and many people who see your face soon forget it. You gain a +4 trait bonus on Stealth checks whenever you attempt to hide in a crowd.
Air-Touched (Magic): You share an affinity with elemental air. You gain DR 1/— against creatures and attacks with the air type.
Depending on race:
Unscathed (Magic): You are amazingly resistant to energy attacks because of either your upbringing or magical experimentation. Each type of energy resistance you have (if any) increases by 2 points.
Do you guys have other suggestions for her? Anything big that I've missed? Let me know.
Hmm
Those traits do seem pretty appropriate.
As far as big things I would recommend having her play a Slayer and not a rogue if you want her to be more effective as a ranged assassin type. Ranged rogues can only be effective if they win initiative and have a clear shot to their target. If she was a Slayer she would be able to be able to contribute much more often.
I have to third this. I highly recommend against a rogue unless someone has a HUGE degree of system mastery, and archery is pretty feat intensive, slayer will help a lot with that.
The player has already selected the class. I know that the mechanics aren't the best for the rogue, but the player seems rather insistent about it.
Suggestions for traits would be very useful. We don't have the advanced class guide, so we couldn't even show her the slayer.
Does she realize the sneak attack is virtually impossible to achieve with a bow? You can't flank with a bow. There isn't an easy way to cause someone to be denied their dex while using a bow, which means he will end up without sneak attack the majority of the time. Even when it might be applicable, sneak attack can only be used at a default range of 30ft without investing in magic items to extend it.
Overall, sneak attack and range just don't play well together.
Rogues are indeed underpowered. They can work if you're willing to tweak them with house rules though. Giving them a rogue talent every level instead of every other is a fairly simple and effective patch. Otherwise you might want to go for something else. The Scout and Sniper archetypes from the APG are good for a ranged rouge.
The player has already selected the class. I know that the mechanics aren't the best for the rogue, but the player seems rather insistent about it.
Suggestions for traits would be very useful. We don't have the advanced class guide, so we couldn't even show her the slayer.
Not having the ACG isn't a problem.
If she's interested in specifically a rogue sort, perhaps consider Ninja instead? It seems like it'd fit a rogue really into disguise and stealth, and the access to things like Vanish will help get sneak attacks, though not particularly reliably.
As for traits, Hunter's Eye is a good way to get longbow proficiency (since rogues only get shortbows).
The character was described as excelling at hiding in shadows, so sniping is an option for sneak attack. Could also use UMD (or potions) for invisibility items.
FYI - Glory of Old is a dwarven Regional Trait, not an option for Adopted.
A very nice rogue archery trait is the Andoren Faction trait that grants longbow proficiency - might be able to convince the GM (assuming you are not the GM) to allow a variant as a Campaign trait.
Another Campaign Trait that has probably made it somewhere else is a Council of Thieves trait that grants +1 to hit in the first round of combat. Useful for ensuring you get that sneak attack. The Vessel Between sounds better though (and they can't stack).
Reactionary for more initiative always a good choice as well!
Sounds like a fun character!
As for traits, Hunter's Eye is a good way to get longbow proficiency (since rogues only get shortbows).
Thanks, that looks like a good one. Looks like it is only in the older versions of the Guide to Organized Play, Season 6 doesn't have it.
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The player has already selected the class. I know that the mechanics aren't the best for the rogue, but the player seems rather insistent about it.
Suggestions for traits would be very useful. We don't have the advanced class guide, so we couldn't even show her the slayer.
Not having the ACG isn't a problem.
If she's interested in specifically a rogue sort, perhaps consider Ninja instead? It seems like it'd fit a rogue really into disguise and stealth, and the access to things like Vanish will help get sneak attacks, though not particularly reliably.
As for traits, Hunter's Eye is a good way to get longbow proficiency (since rogues only get shortbows).
Okay, the Slayer Class does look pretty interesting now that I've seen it. I'll also take a look at Ninja.
It is very important to the player to be able to melt into shadows, sneak around and hide.
Hmm
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I love stealthy PCs.
My sneakiest PCs, were a Ranger, and an Inquisitor.
Both, way sneakier than the Rogue.
Check out this thread, for ideas on achieving super stealth.
As for traits, Hunter's Eye is a good way to get longbow proficiency (since rogues only get shortbows).
And if you can get Longbow Proficiency (either via that trait, or being a slayer) Deadeye Bowman is worth looking at, although it is a religion trait -
Deadeye Bowman (Religion, Erastil):
When you are using a longbow, if only a single creature is providing soft cover to your target, your target does not receive the +4 bonus to AC.
A Rogue actually isn't that good at sniping, or even hiding.
You build it right, even a Raging Barbarian, is better at Sniping.
A raging barbarian can't even use the Stealth skill.
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A raging barbarian can't even use the Stealth skill.A Rogue actually isn't that good at sniping, or even hiding.
You build it right, even a Raging Barbarian, is better at Sniping.
With this trait:
Coherent Rage
Your determination allows you to hold onto a shred of your rational mind at all times.
Benefit: Select one of the following skills: Bluff, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, or Stealth.
You may use this skill normally while raging.
...or this feat:
Skilled Rager
With practice, you’ve mastered your rage to allow yourself more versatility.
Prerequisite: Rage class feature.
Benefit: Choose one Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skill. While you are raging, you can use this skill.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, it applies to a different skill.
...he can.
About the only thing that can match an inquisitor for sneakiness is an archeologist bard. Both of them have invisibility on their spell lists. Both classes can use spell to boost up their abilities both in combat and out of combat to ridicules levels.
This is one of those cases where quite a lot of the "nay-sayers" are speaking from experience. The rogue can be made viable with large amounts of optimization, but right out of the gate it's not a very good class. I've seen rogue players grow frustrated with how their character performs several times and generally try to steer new players away from the class. It's worth noting that Paizo are actually working on a rewrite of the rogue, which will be published in Pathfinder Unchained.
For a bow using "rogueish"-type character I'd say the Ranger (possibly with the urban archetype), inquisitor, ninja, slayer (which is what the combat rogue always aspired to be), vivisectionist alchemist, ard, and the investigator are all viable options. Out of those I'd say the slayer is the closest to the "iconic" sneaky rogue archer playstyle with the ninja as a more supernatural second, while the other classes all rely on spellcasting to various degrees.
Holy Sneak Attacks, Stealth Man! I just read the Stygian Slayer archetype. Does anyone know how many spells per day the Stygian Slayer gets?
Hmm
Never mind. I just figured out that the 7th level Stygian abilities were not actual spells, but a free UMD for devices with those spells. Still cool.
Hmm
Stygian Slayer is indeed very cool! If you like the slayer concept but want to add a bit of spellcasting to the mix there's also the Sanctified Slayer archetype (also found in the ACG) for the inquisitor - it blends slayer and inquisitor by picking up Studied Target and Sneak Attack and losing Judgements. You lose full BAB progression, but gain 6th level spontaneous spellcasting from a very viable spell list.
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I presented the options to the 14 year old girl, and when she saw the Stygian slayer option, she pointed and said, "Invisibility at fourth level? That!"
She liked the new class, and the opportunity to do long bow. As for her traits, she got adopted by dwarves for the grounded trait -- extra acrobatics and reflex save (and some cool flavor to her back story, as we decided that the dwarf was a Fagin-like character from Daggermark who taught her to steal. We picked the name Crowbar Dalgrin for the dwarf.
She also went for the magical talent to pick up the once a day "Mage Hand" which she thought sounded like fun.
Thanks for your assistance in all of this, and for pointing us to a class that we might have missed. I think the only thing that we will miss from Rogue is the opportunity to have sleight of hand as a class skill (but I note that she was not interested in the traits that would give her that class skill...)
Hmm
I will second (or third) Sanctified Slayer. Lots of skills. Great stealth option via a great spell list. Studied Target and Sneak Attack!
It has a good shot at being my next PC.
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That sounds great!
I would suggest she take the Combat Style Slayer Talent.
Those extra Archery feats will really help.
Also, if she is interested in using Mage Hand, the Hand of the Mage is a much better option, as it is At-Will, and allows her to nab the Slayer talents that will make her a better archer.
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That sounds great!
I would suggest she take the Combat Style Slayer Talent.
Those extra Archery feats will really help.
Also, if she is interested in using Mage Hand, the Hand of the Mage is a much better option, as it is At-Will, and allows her to nab the Slayer talents that will make her a better archer.
Just looked at it. Eew. You have a mummified elf hand hanging from your neck? That might cause some problems with the law abiding area we're doing a mission through, and it looks necromantic. On the other hand, her character's alignment is neutral, and she told me she hated the elf family that raised her... Maybe she really, really hated them!
But it would have to be a consideration for later. The budget for all our characters is really tight.
Hmm
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Well, for newbies, we usually make a few exceptions.
You could throw it in some random treasure.
Also, as a DM, you can change the flavor. Maybe have it be a monkey hand, or eagle's claw.
There is also the Cloak of the Hedge Wizard, which has other useful minor abilities.
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Well, for newbies, we usually make a few exceptions.
You could throw it in some random treasure.
Also, as a DM, you can change the flavor. Maybe have it be a monkey hand, or eagle's claw.
There is also the Cloak of the Hedge Wizard, which has other useful minor abilities.
We're all starting at second level (provided we give the GM juicy back stories) with 1000 gp cash for all supplies.
I had to beg for a wand of mage armor, and provide the GM a backstory on how I got it so that he could use it on me later. On the other hand, the 14 year old is the GM's daughter, so maybe there would be a different budget for her.
I love the Cloak of the Hedge Wizard. What a cool item! Out of our budget, but so much fun. I could see our little stygian sylph getting really into the Divination, Illusion or Transmutation cloaks.
Hmm
The first Slayer talent is for Trapfinding. We had forgotten to mention that the character was the trap expert in the group and we are going into something where we expect traps.
The second Slayer talent may be used for Trap Spotter, depending on how things go.
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The first Slayer talent is for Trapfinding. We had forgotten to mention that the character was the trap expert in the group and we are going into something where we expect traps.
The second Slayer talent may be used for Trap Spotter, depending on how things go.
Bret --
I couldn't find trap spotting. Is that the same as Trap Sense? If so, it's all wrapped up in the first Slayer talent:
Trapfinding: The slayer gains Disable Device as a class skill. The slayer also gains the trapfinding and trap sense rogue abilities, using his slayer level as his effective rogue level.
Also because of the archetype Kaaren picked, her second Slayer Talent is the Invisibility Spell that she wanted. After that, she can pick up whatever she wants on levels 6 & 8.
Hmm
In case she wants the rogue:
You can let her use his sneak attack as the scout in 3.5? or give her the scout archetype, but advance the benefit of skirmisher a bit, 8th lvl is very high to get it, after all I don't think that will be overpowering, less to be taken with an archer rogue.
If the trait 'magical talent' qualifies her for arcana strike, will help.