Venture-Agent, Ohio—Columbus
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you must buy ammunition in full lots (typically 10 or 20 for mundane ammunition and 50 for magical ammunition).
The quote above is the only relevant rule I've been able to find to cover the purchasing of special material ammunition. So the question is, if I want to buy non-magical adamantine (or cold iron or silver or whatever) arrows, do I have to buy in lots of 20 or 50? It seems clear by the quote above the answer would be 20, but I've seen people (GMs included) that insist the answer is 50. Am I missing something?
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you must buy ammunition in full lots (typically 10 or 20 for mundane ammunition and 50 for magical ammunition).The quote above is the only relevant rule I've been able to find to cover the purchasing of special material ammunition. So the question is, if I want to buy non-magical adamantine (or cold iron or silver or whatever) arrows, do I have to buy in lots of 20 or 50? It seems clear by the quote above the answer would be 20, but I've seen people (GMs included) that insist the answer is 50. Am I missing something?
Adamantine arrows are mundane, so it's a 20 arrow lot for basic admantine arrows.
Lot number for mundane ammunition can vary though, durable arrows are lot 1 for instance.
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Some people have a slight issue, where they take a mechanical limitation of some programs, like Hero Labs, as the LAW. Hero Labs only allows non-standard arrows in lots of 50, because they are assuming that you are planning on making them masterwork/magical, rather than just buying them as non-magical throw-away arrows.
For most arrows, they are sold in lots of 20. As mentioned above, Durable arrows, as an example, are sold in lots of 1. If you are planning on using weapon blanch, that covers a pseudo-lot of 10 arrows, so you either have a partial quiver of blanched arrows, or used two "doses" of blanch.
Later in the game, when your archer fires lots of arrows per turn, and frequently needs to overcome DR, large quantities of special arrows is usually not an issue, between plenty of money and the potential number of efficient quivers to manage weight...
I know of several people who, once they get some money on their archer PCs, start using silver-blanched cold iron arrows as their normal ammunition.
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Even more reasons why I never endorse HL or any other programs for my players until they're comfortable doing it the "old fashioned" way first - as one of my professors puts it, it's easy to let the computer do all the work, but if you have no way to know if it's even close to being right, how to do you spot-check the computer?
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Can players circumvent the rules for limited ammunition by buying durable arrows?
Durable arrows can be bought for 1gp.
Can you buy a single adamantine durable arrow? And then use it forever? At 61gp a pop, that's not too bad. An archer can easily have 5-10 reusable adamantine arrows for a mere 305-610gp that could last them their entire career.
Can you buy a single +1 durable human bane arrow? It loses the bane property after its used, but could you enchant it again at the fractional cost?
I apologize if this is a question with a clear answer in the guide, but it's not conveniently accessible where I'm sitting and on the device I'm on at the moment, and I just came out of a conversation where two folks were on either side of the rules on this.
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Agreed with Nefreet on all of the above.
For that last issue, abundant ammunition is your friend...
Also, just as a friendly reminder, you cannot buy cold iron blunt arrows, as blunt arrows are specified as having a wooden ball as the head. They can still be blanched with cold iron, adamantine, silver or even ghost salt, of course.
very odd, why would blunt arrows have to be wood, that actually makes no sense
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I've encountered many players with metal-tipped blunt arrows, and GMs that allow them (which I'm one of). My Ranger even forked over the ~1200gp required for a quiver of Adamantine Blunt Arrows. It's easily explainable that the blunt tips can be crafted of metal, rather than wood.
That being said, when I encounter GMs that disagree (which I have), I just eat the 60gp/pop and fire them off as though they were solid wood.
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I think the main issue that most GMs have with special material arrows is that most are considered masterwork when created (mithral and adamantine come to mind.) So if you are purchasing masterwork arrows you would purchase 50 for 302.5 gp.
That being said in PFS I'm alright with being able to piece mail this.
On the issue of Abundant Ammunition remember it only affects non-magical ammunition. I've seen people "forget" about this at pfs.
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I think the main issue that most GMs have with special material arrows is that most are considered masterwork when created (mithral and adamantine come to mind.) So if you are purchasing masterwork arrows you would purchase 50 for 302.5 gp.
Purchasing arrows made of Mithral or Adamantine is one way to get around the 50 lot requirement.
A quiver of 20 arrows is 1gp and weighs 3lbs.
Applying the rules for Special Materials, you can purchase a quiver of Mithral Arrows for 1501gp, and a quiver of Adamantine Arrows for 1201gp.
But, in order to enchant them further, you'd still need 50. At that point, you'd have to actually purchase 60, and have 10 left over.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I think the main issue that most GMs have with special material arrows is that most are considered masterwork when created (mithral and adamantine come to mind.) So if you are purchasing masterwork arrows you would purchase 50 for 302.5 gp.Purchasing arrows made of Mithral or Adamantine is one way to get around the 50 lot requirement.
A quiver of 20 arrows is 1gp and weighs 3lbs.
Applying the rules for Special Materials, you can purchase a quiver of Mithral Arrows for 1501gp, and a quiver of Adamantine Arrows for 1201gp.
But, in order to enchant them further, you'd still need 50. At that point, you'd have to actually purchase 60, and have 10 left over.
Or get your hands on a "custom order" boon.
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this came up at my lodge cause ranged characters would buy 10 admantine arrows. while i argued vehemently that the guide reqd u buy in full lots supposedly my vl talked to brock at paizoCon and he said special material arrows could be purchased individually. i assume he was honest in this as a venture officer that makes stuff up can get in alot of trble.
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very odd, why would blunt arrows have to be wood, that actually makes no sense
Because the description of the blunt arrow explicitly states that the arrowhead is wood.
And, since that makes the entire thing wood and feathers, no metal at all, it cannot be made of cold iron, mithril, adamantine, viridium, etc.
These arrows have rounded wooden tips.
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The argument against that being, since you can replace the tips of other arrows with different materials, you could also do so with these.
But, if I'm sitting at your table, I will happily abide by your rules.
Heh. Not my rules, but the rules that someone pointed out to me, since, at the time, I had silver-blanched cold iron blunt arrows in my archer's inventory.
Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine.
Items without metal parts cannot be made from cold iron.
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral.
The alchemical silvering process can't be applied to nonmetal items, and it doesn't work on rare metals such as adamantine, cold iron, and mithral.
Since, for a normal arrow of this tech level, only the arrowhead is typically made of metal, and, in the case of blunt arrows, it is replaced with a rounded wooden tip, it doesn't appear that it could be made of a metal-replacement material, or have a material that only bonds with metal able to bond with it...
Now, blunt arrows should be able to benefit form being made of darkwood. Wonder if they would heal up if made out of greenwood? Never lose an arrow again...
I know what the rules say about having to have wood blunts but it makes no sense in reality. The same with shortbows doing less damage than longbows, having to pay so much more to get a stronger bow to get your strength bonus on damage. I sorta understand why they did it, they dont want to have realistic archery.