| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The pack lord archetype states that Improved Empathic Link "replaces the 6th-level additional use of wild shape." This seems simple enough, but does this affect the entire progression of wild shape? In other words, will I end up with 8 uses per day at 20th level or unlimited?
My first instinct says that the price isn't that great unless the entire progression is affected. However, I have a few reasons for thinking that you still end up with unlimited uses.
1) I don't know of any other archetype that trades away a capstone.
2) The trade-off seems a little steep. The Beast Master archetype for ranger is very similar and only trades away a single combat style feat for Improved Empathic Link.
3) The archetype creation guidelines in the new ACG suggest that if an archetype's new ability is intended to affect the entire progression of an ability, it should state that explicitly. This was done for the other druid archetypes, which typically alter wild shape to function at a decreased effective class level.
If one of the Paizo people could weigh in on this or post a FAQ concerning the issue, that would be ideal, but I would love to have other opinions in any case.
Yes you end up with 8 uses at 20th level. when do i have a class feature
Yes you end up with 8 uses at 20th level. when do i have a class feature
Actually according to that link you get unlimited uses. Unless it explicitly states you get the lesser version, you get exactly what the ability says you get. Since druid says you get wild shape at will at level 20, you get it at will.
I base this off of the link text saying you still get weapon training 2 at level 9 even though you did not get weapon training 1 in the fighter example
If an archetype replaces a class feature that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability. For example, if an archetype replaces a rogue's +2d6 sneak attack bonus at 3rd level, when she reaches 5th level and gains a sneak attack bonus, her sneak attack doesn't jump from +1d6 to +3d6—it improves to +2d6, just as if she had finally gained the increase at 3rd level. This adjustment continues for every level at which her sneak attack would improve, until at 19th level she has +9d6 instead of the +10d6 of a standard rogue.
There. That's the right quote
the druid wildshape wording though has it listed separately, it's not really clear if this should or should not still be something gained at level 20.
in fact the archetype only replaces a part/modifies wildshape and doesn't remove a progression.
the fact that wildshape is all one big thing and this removed a little part of it, not everything gained at level 6, this at least makes it questionable to me.
the druid wildshape wording though has it listed separately, it's not really clear if this should or should not still be something gained at level 20.
in fact the archetype only replaces a part/modifies wildshape and doesn't remove a progression.
the fact that wildshape is all one big thing and this removed a little part of it, not everything gained at level 6, this at least makes it questionable to me.
The capstone becomes 8 per day. It increases every 2 levels by one, the lv20 part is just saying what the increase is for that jump, since all the other's were just the plus one. It's part of the increasing wildshape use, so it would get dropped just like all the others.
Example if feel would be, "sneak attack increases 1d6 every two levels till level 5. At level 7 increase it by 2d6, then it increases by 1d6 every two levels after that. It's needing to break out because it's a different effect put all part of the progression.
Now it does seem that the strength of your wildshape doesn't get reduced.
the druid wildshape wording though has it listed separately, it's not really clear if this should or should not still be something gained at level 20.
in fact the archetype only replaces a part/modifies wildshape and doesn't remove a progression.
the fact that wildshape is all one big thing and this removed a little part of it, not everything gained at level 6, this at least makes it questionable to me.
The capstone becomes 8 per day. It increases every 2 levels by one, the lv20 part is just saying what the increase is for that jump, since all the other's were just the plus one. It's part of the increasing wildshape use, so it would get dropped just like all the others.
Example if feel would be, "sneak attack increases 1d6 every two levels till level 5. At level 7 increase it by 2d6, then it increases by 1d6 every two levels after that. It's needing to break out because it's a different effect put all part of the progression.
Now it does seem that the strength of your wildshape doesn't get reduced.
my point was that you didn't lose everything gained at level 6, which I found odd, and could call it into question.
So I'm glad to get some discussion on this! Chess Pwn, I had already searched the FAQ and seen that entry - I don't think it addresses my concern directly, but it does seem to reinforce point 3 of my OP. Paizo uses very different language when the entire progression is affected...that said it isn't much of a price if it jumps up at 8th to its normal number.
The faq I posted has nothing to do with it. I thought it was the archetype text that I posted later. That's the one that says the ability is always reduced after that point
I only see one link...that said, your example with sneak attack isn't really relevant. Unless you can speak to a specific instance where Paizo uses similar language - and sneak attack isn't a capstone, either. The difference between 9d6 and 10d6 is exactly 1d6. The difference between 8 & unlimited is infinite (well effectively).
The example with sneak attack is taken straight from the archetype definition. and wild shape has a progression, +1 for every 2 levels, but once you would hit 9 it becomes infinite instead. your at will isn't a capstone. It's the top progression of wildshape. SO you "lose your capstone" for this archetype. Here's your link for the archetype quote i used. So "my sneak attack example" wasn't my example, it was Paizo's example. archetypes
Now you can take this or not. But here's what you got that deals with your question.
I only see one link...that said, your example with sneak attack isn't really relevant. Unless you can speak to a specific instance where Paizo uses similar language - and sneak attack isn't a capstone, either. The difference between 9d6 and 10d6 is exactly 1d6. The difference between 8 & unlimited is infinite (well effectively).
I feel similarly. The wording seems as though getting unlimited uses is not part of the "progression" of the ability, but a capstone. That being said I can see both interpretations. I tend to lean towards getting unlimited uses only because it seems that losing it is a fairly unbalanced trade off. Since a GM would be justified in saying you only get 8 uses, I would make sure to discuss this if you think your campaign will get to lvl 20
The example with sneak attack is taken straight from the archetype definition. and wild shape has a progression, +1 for every 2 levels, but once you would hit 9 it becomes infinite instead. your at will isn't a capstone. It's the top progression of wildshape. SO you "lose your capstone" for this archetype. Here's your link for the archetype quote i used. So "my sneak attack example" wasn't my example, it was Paizo's example. archetypes
Now you can take this or not. But here's what you got that deals with your question.
That is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you. That said, I may consider house ruling something (not necessarily the full unlimited) and requesting a similar ruling from my GM should it come up. It doesn't seem quite right.
Lol, I suppose it was too much to hope for that someone from Paizo might chime in. My GM is kind of a stickler for that kind of thing.