Psychic Searcher Oracle - no Investigator talents level requirements?

[Martain]

I have a rules question regarding the level requirements of the investigator talents gained through the Psychic Searcher Oracle archetype.

Psychic Talent (Su):

At 3rd level, a psychic searcher’s mastery of her supernatural insight grows, granting her a new investigator talent from the following list: amazing inspiration, eidetic recollection, empathy, inspired alertness, item lore, perceptive tracking (except using Sense Motive instead of Perception or Survival), rogue talent (only for hard to fool APG), and tenacious inspiration. Whenever a psychic searcher can select a new revelation, she can instead select an investigator or rogue talent from the above list. This ability replaces the revelation gained at 3rd level.

My understanding regarding the RAW of this ability is that at level 3 I can take any talent from that list. I expect that RAI would have been to word it similar to:

Alchemist Discovery (Ex):

The investigator can select one of the following alchemist discoveries as an investigator talent: combine extracts, concentrate poison, dilution, elixir of life, enhance potion, eternal potion, extend potion, infusion, mutagenUM, and poison conversionUC. When selecting an alchemist discovery, he must be high enough level to qualify for that discovery, using his investigator level as his alchemist level to determine if he qualifies. This talent can be selected multiple times; each time grants a new alchemist discovery.

The previous ability in the Psychic Searcher archetype indicates:

Inspiration (Ex):

At 2nd level, a psychic searcher gains an inspiration pool, as the investigator class ability. A psychic searcher uses her oracle level as her investigator level to determine the effects of this ability.

So we have an issue between what RAW indicates and what I expect are the RAI. The only place it indicates to use your oracle level as your investigator is under "Inspiration" and not under "Psychic Talent".

Thus either you can take any of the talents from the list when ever you could take a new revelation (hello feat extra revelation!) or you can never take any of the talents with a level requirement unless you multiclass Investigator class levels in order to meet the talent level requirements.

Am I seeing things wrong here regarding the RAW?

[Hmm]

I also have a question regarding the RAW. I'd like to do this for PFS, and I'd like to know if I can select any of the abilities offered in that list at 3rd level.

[Julix]

I read it as option A (i.e. you can use anything from the list regardless of level); however, that makes it hard to explain why such shitty ones are on that list too. who'd take hard to fool (reroll 1 sense motive check per day) when you can take empaty (always reroll sense motive and your inspiration dice on top and some mind reading stuff)?

[Julix]

Out of curiosity, what's up with the lack of interest on this question? - Doesn't anyone play Psychic Searcher Oracles? How have you handled this in the past?

[Blake's Tiger]

My table (non-PFS) handles it as no level requirement. The talents are each so much less powerful than a revelation, that taking one is a decrease in power (but increase in flavor).

This question was around before the errata. I wish that it had been addressed then (especially for PFS play), but I've had to take silence to mean that no level requirement is the intended result.

I believe it is also the RAW: it grants you a new talent from the list, no level requirement is stated.

[Julix]

As per first post in this thread the RAW actually is that you can't take any of them, because you don't *have* any Investigator talents to qualify for the abilities... (i.e. the wording on the other ability that says level counts as investigator for *this*, meaning Inspiration).

However, RAI must be that something that replaces a Revelation will give you *something*, so I think your interpretation is perfectly reasonable.

Edit: As for the revelations being less powerful - Eidetic Recollection allows taking 10 with all knowledge and taking 20 Cha times per day (if you don't use inspiration dice for anything else) - with +5 Charisma-mod that is a lot of knowledge, so you can be all-round Knowledge-Monster with very little investment. Sounds worthy of a revelation, no?

Edit2: Found out that Hero Labs uses Psychic Searcher as investigator level for pre-reqs - http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2slpi?PostACG-Errata-Advice-for-Psychic-Searche r - friend confirmed this, and that is how it will be in our game. :(

[Blake's Tiger]

Bummer that you're stuck with how HeroLab handles it. As a program, it can't handle ambiguity, so it had to go one way or the other.

I disagree that you can't take them RAW (and we both agree it's not RAI). The ability "Psychic Talent" states that you can select any of those talents at 3rd level and select any on the list instead of a revelation. The class ability grants them to you. You don't need the Investigator class or class equivalency (unlike Inspiration, which needs equivalency because it is the same ability as the Investigator talent). None of them are dependent on Investigator levels, anyhow.

What it doesn't do, though, is allow you to take Extra Investigator Talent. They're not Investigator Talents anymore, they're Psychic Talents.

It's you're stuck with the HeroLab interpretation because most of them have pretty high level requirements. I think only one qualifies at 3rd level.

Eidetic Recolection (and probably all of them) are weighted lass at our table because or GM is rather stingy with Knowledge results. A 30-35 wouldn't tell us too much about the things we'd really like to know about: demons, dragons, constructs.

[Casual Viking]

As a general rule, you can only ignore prerequisites if it's explicitly called out.