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What is the rule for Pathfinder Society events for a minimum age for a player at the table unsupervised?
On Sunday, while trying to play Trial By Machine, we had someone who could not have been older than ten years of age foisted off on our table, and this individual was exceptionally disruptive and by the end of the module was attempting to get his character (and the rest of the party) killed off 'so he could play the module again and know all the tricks'.
Thank you very much for your time.
Wage Slave (Jim)
AKA Wei Ji, Slayer Tengu 2nd Level
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This should really be in the pfs forum, not the rules forum. Flagged to be moved.
I think that your problem is not with the age of the player, but the playstyle. I started pfs at 14, so I am supportive of younger players. Now, that said younger players do sometimes tend to get a little out of hand, but this behavior that you are describing violates Paizo's don't be a jerk rule. This is not a violation just restricted to younger players, I have seen grown men do similar (just not quite as drastic) things to what you described above, but the best way to take care of this issue when it comes up is to try and discourage that behavior if you can, and, if it persists, report it to your local VO.
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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There is a defacto minimum maturity level. (if you are violating the don't be a jerk rule, you can be asked to leave. Or in the case of an unescorted 10 year old, asked to wait patiently in the corner till your parents come back for you.)
But there is no min age. There are 7 year old players and even IIRC GMs.
Also, you cannot replay a scenario if you die in it. So that doesn't work.
I suspect that is why he was trying to force a table wipe. There are precedents for mulliganing the game if "external forces" cause the game to fail. (For example, locally, one GM egregiously misread the rules/stat block in such a way that it gave the enemy triple the action economy he should have had. The resulting TPK was retconned and people were allowed to replay.) It is possible the player thought if he could OOCly force a tpk, people would be upset enough that the GM would feel bad making them suffer for his bad behavior, and would mulligan the game.
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There is a defacto minimum maturity level. (if you are violating the don't be a jerk rule, you can be asked to leave. Or in the case of an unescorted 10 year old, asked to wait patiently in the corner till your parents come back for you.)
But there is no min age. There are 7 year old players and even IIRC GMs.
Also, you cannot replay a scenario if you die in it. So that doesn't work.I suspect that is why he was trying to force a table wipe. There are precedents for mulliganing the game if "external forces" cause the game to fail. (For example, locally, one GM egregiously misread the rules/stat block in such a way that it gave the enemy triple the action economy he should have had. The resulting TPK was retconned and people were allowed to replay.) It is possible the player thought if he could OOCly force a tpk, people would be upset enough that the GM would feel bad making them suffer for his bad behavior, and would mulligan the game.
Wow. That is really, really, really dirty. I didn't know that was even possible. Thanks for the head's up and warning so I can watch for this sort of behavior as a player in the future!
Wei
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Well, it shouldn't work, because an on the ball GM should just excuse the misbehaving player, and go on with the game.
(It is also possible that the player was at a previous table that wiped and was retconned for legitimate reasons and now has a very disruptive idea of how the game works)
mulliganing a game is supposed to be reserved for extreme circumstances, and should involve a VC. However the reality is that there is no actual mechanism that physically compels the GM to hand out sheets, so if probably happens more often than people think.
I too will chime in that it isn't the age of the player, but the maturity.
And there isn't an age limit on playing or GMing in PFS.
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I too will chime in that it isn't the age of the player, but the maturity.
And there isn't an age limit on playing or GMing in PFS.
Adding a "me too" here.
I once GMed a 9 year old girl at a convention. She was a bit overly bloodthirsty, apparently wanting more of a hack and slash game, but a lot of adults are the same way. Overall, it was fun having her at the table.
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I've GM'ed for a 10 year old several times, though always with their father present. As mentioned, maturity is a more important factor than age; I've known some teens / tweens that are more mature than "adults".
I much prefer "minor" gamers to be accompanied by a parent / guardian, but it's difficult if that's not explicitly stated in the rules at sign up time.
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Well, it shouldn't work, because an on the ball GM should just excuse the misbehaving player, and go on with the game.
(It is also possible that the player was at a previous table that wiped and was retconned for legitimate reasons and now has a very disruptive idea of how the game works)
mulliganing a game is supposed to be reserved for extreme circumstances, and should involve a VC. However the reality is that there is no actual mechanism that physically compels the GM to hand out sheets, so if probably happens more often than people think.
As far as I'm aware, there is no such thing as mulliganing a game. Under any circumstances.
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I would look into the rules of the convention/store/city/municipality/county/state/country you are in. Some areas have actual laws that say a child cannot be left unsupervised if they are under a certain age.
Some areas (most as far as I know in the U.S.) require one to have a license to be a day care provider.
As such, it may be against the law (or at least the rules of the convention) for a child to not have a parent (or otherwise legal guardian) with them if they are under a certain age.
Normally I wouldn't make an issue of it if it happened to me, but if the child was being disruptive, then I'd ask them to call their parents and have them come get them, as I am not a babysitter or licensed daycare provider.
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I started playing at 9 years old, and I've taught several players of similar age to play over the years.
There's an increasing number of younger players attending PZCon UK, as parents realise it's a family-friendly environment. I've played with a few younger players there, and they've been no problem at all. They usually get paired with their parent, but this isn't because of behavioural worries, more to help explain rules, or translate from English to their main language.
The problems you experienced should be covered by the 'Don't Be a Jerk' rule, which while it isn't ideal (finding a VO, to find a parent, to come collect the kid), is far more preferable to gritting your teeth and playing on, risking a TPK.
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I suspect that is why he was trying to force a table wipe. There are precedents for mulliganing the game if "external forces" cause the game to fail. (For example, locally, one GM egregiously misread the rules/stat block in such a way that it gave the enemy triple the action economy he should have had. The resulting TPK was retconned and people were allowed to replay.) It is possible the player thought if he could OOCly force a tpk, people would be upset enough that the GM would feel bad making them suffer for his bad behavior, and would mulligan the game.
I don't know how you'd go about forcing a TPK, out of character.
The things that happen to your PC should be as a result of the things the PC does in-game.Being a disruptive character, like pulling the King's beard, and daring him to do something about it, might get you executed, but it would be a logical result of your in-character actions.
As would, taking some boneheaded action that blew the party's stealth.
Being a disruptive player, should just get you ejected from the table. It shouldn't affect the other PCs at all, except that it may change the effective average party level. Should the GM alter the subtier, in such a case? Would be a shame to punish the non-problem players with encounters they can't handle because they're one PC short.
I'm sure the 'external forces' replays are for things like the GM being taken ill halfway through the slot, and even then, would be only at the discretion of the event coordinator.
Not "We've failed the mission, let's make the GM quit, so we can replay with hindsight".
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As a father of a 10 year old who frequently goes to cons and lets him play on his own I am certain that you will find this sort of behavior at all ages. My son was at GenCon playing by himself and I was given compliment after compliment about his roleplaying, Style, and knowledge of the game. Going so far as being complimented by some of the Paizo staff about his playing. I have done this before as I GM quite a bit and can't sit at every table with him while I am running. Nor is it fair to him to make him sit by me while I run and not allow him the fun to enjoy the game.
On the flip side I have seen 20+ year old that are truly disruptive, ruining the fun of a game and saying similar things. So to say that he has to do with age is false.
Now the funny part is that my son actually played Trial by Machine on Sunday. I asked him about this and he only told me that he played and tried to help his table get through. If this isn't true I would really like to know so that I may correct him on this. If you could tell me either a name or a class that he was playing so I can verify it. (He wasn't playing a pregen.)
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Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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On behalf of my own now-12 year old son, who has been playing and DMing both Pathfinder and D&D4e since he was 9, I will heartily agree that there should not be an age minimum ever instituted.
Mr Wei Ji, sorry you had a poor experience, but that's no reason for a blanket rule, since there are plenty of exceptions.
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As someone who has earned at least half their gm credits running pfs for 6-12 year olds at a daycare (mostly the younger half of that range) I too will say that it is not age but maturity that determines such behavior. There are methods for curbing such behaviors in those sorts of players, but since this was a random table rather than the same kid(s) over multiple games, that makes it much harder.
I wish I attended your daycare as a kid and that I had your job now. XD
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It is absolutely true what these fine folk are saying: age matters not, maturity does.
I have run tables with kids no older than 10 and they have sometimes come out as star players.
I have also run tables with kids older than 30 and they have been rather problematic, from not participating to not paying attention to constantly derailing conversation to something out of game to shouting at other players that they're playing their characters wrong.
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Ok I think we have all established that maturity is more important than age.
Now to the more pressing issue, which is a disruptive player at your table, especially a minor.
I am assuming this may be the same table (or the same player) as my GenCon's roommate Trial by Machine table. He reported to me that a parent basically "dumped" his young kid at the table and was being disruptive. Sadly, the parent just left after leaving the kid there, effectively using the PFS room as "free daycare". I did see the kid alone again at other tables, so my guess is that it was not just that one slot.
So maybe the question here is: what is the correct procedure to handle this (both by the players and/or the gm)?
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Cheap, not free *wink*. But yeah, the issue is that the GM then feels responsible (unfairly) for making sure that the kid is safe and doesn't get lost, taken, etc. With an adult, they'd be turned away. Potentially similarly with a kid if their parent around (although, preferably, the parent could just talk sense into the kid). While it clearly isn't the GM's responsibility to look after the kid, I know I'd find it difficult not to assume that responsibility, and it's my guess that others would too.
Exactly. My best guess is that in this situation, the GM should approach GenCon HQ and notify them of the problem. From there on, I don't think there is anything else anyone at the table can do.
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As a father of a 10 year old who frequently goes to cons and lets him play on his own I am certain that you will find this sort of behavior at all ages. My son was at GenCon playing by himself and I was given compliment after compliment about his roleplaying, Style, and knowledge of the game. Going so far as being complimented by some of the Paizo staff about his playing. I have done this before as I GM quite a bit and can't sit at every table with him while I am running. Nor is it fair to him to make him sit by me while I run and not allow him the fun to enjoy the game.
On the flip side I have seen 20+ year old that are truly disruptive, ruining the fun of a game and saying similar things. So to say that he has to do with age is false.
Well if you have an awesome kid I blame you for being an awesome parent.
I also agree matters little in wrecking the game. The worst player I ever met was over 60. This player was a nightmare, cheated, harrassed other players, tired to abuse the rules to wrekc other players time, an overall jerk player.
I met a few kids that had some issues and did not understnd the concept of table time, but they are not bad. At worst annoying.
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The individual and their parent related to my question have contacted me via PM and we are having a discussion on the topic in private.
Thanks to everyone for the insight on this, it is helpful for not only Pathfinder, but any other situation of gaming that a person may run into a similar issue with.
And yes, maturity goes a long way. I've seen forty year old players throw tables when they didn't get their way, and some younger players exhibit both common sense and focus in a way that people at the same table twice their age could not.