Thoughts on the Spiritualist?

[chaoseffect]

So I was looking through the Spiritualist archetype for Investigator and I am intrigued though doubtful; it gets some nice toys but trades a lot for them. Heres how I see it.

PROs:
1. Legend Lore at a 1 min cast time as often as you want... plus some other less useful spells. Very cool and useful depending on game.
2. Reroll failed saves an extreme number of times per day. Wow defense.
3. Wis to saves and ac. Draws from same resource pool as other two but still a potentially handy ability.

CON:
1. No extracts
2. No extracts
3. No mutagen option or Eternal Potion.

So would you ever go Spiritualist? Its has a lot going for it... just not enough in place of extracts.

[Eltacolibre]

Spiritualist is a very roleplay heavy class, the 1 min casting time to consult with the spirits, make him a very effective detective/diviner but without extracts/mutagen, it means that you are kind of free to make any kind of melee or ranged spiritualist, you want to make. He even uses wisdom instead of intelligence.

I would only recommend it, if your dm enjoys investigation campaign and various mysteries or you are playing in Eberron.

Spiritualist make also excellent npc for dm, if you want to have weird occult detective.

[Captain K.]

It sounds like a superb NPC.

Investigators are poor warriors to begin with, and the lack of extracts make them much worse.

However, as a quest giver, can they be bettered? They have divination and the automatically pass any knowledge skill. They would make excellent grand viziers for a noble.

It's a good thing that some archetypes are best for NPCs, it changes things up. Geisha for instance is a rubbish PC archetype for a Bard, but makes for a very interesting woman in a city intrigue game.

[theLegend76]

I think a spiritualist might make a nice PC for the Carrion Crown AP. Especially since it is undead/haunt heavy. And you do seem to use a lot of roleplay in that AP, or at least you can.

[Deadmanwalking]

Captain K. wrote:

Investigators are poor warriors to begin with, and the lack of extracts make them much worse.

I...what? I mean, I agree with the rest of your post (more or less), but Investigators are potentially superb combatants from level 4 onward.

From BAB + Class alone (no Extracts or Inspiration involved) they wind up with +25 to hit, +10 damage at level 20. Fighters have +25 to hit, +8 damage if you include Greater Weapon Focus and the Weapon Specialization stuff. So...that's better flat bonuses than Fighters have by default. And even Barbarians are +24 to hit, +12 damage by default, and equivalent.

Now, both Fighters and Barbarians have other things going for them (higher HD to start with, along with the Investigator's bonus damage being Precision)...but those numbers being comparable even sans Extracts and leaving aside Inspiration (and the awesomeness an Inspired Weapon can bring) shows that default Investigators are really quite solid on combat, thanks all the same. And investigators can easily toss on the ability to sicken everyone they hit, to boot, which is very cool.

And I can do a more in-depth analysis if you disbelieve that very rough count.

Now, the Spiritualist, I actually agree on, they give up a lot of cool stuff which can be used either in or out of combat for an interesting suite of non-combat and defensive abilities, making them excellent NPCs but less than ideal PCs.

[Wyrmfoe]

Just as a quick note...

Dwarven Spiritualists can be impressively resilient, as well as thematic if the spiritualism is roleplayed as constitutive of a Dwarf's traditionalism and ancestor veneration.

Mechanically, with the Dwarf's racial bonus to Wisdom, it is easy to start with a 16 WIS. This provides a strong baseline for the archetype's Wisdom-based abilities. The "Steel Soul" racial feat and "Glory of Old" race trait both improve the Investigator's already strong saves, which the archetype already boosts.

However, the big benefit is at 3rd level, once the Spiritualist gains "Sixth Sense" and can reroll failed saving throws. Now, also at 3rd level, take the "Strong Comeback" feat. With both of these, it is unlikely that the Dwarven Spiritualist (already possessing the racials mentioned above) will lose a saving throw again.

Here is "Strong Comeback":

"Strong Comeback
You learn quickly from past mistakes.

Benefit: Whenever you are allowed to reroll an ability check, a skill check, or a saving throw, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on the reroll."

Here is "Sixth Sense":

"Sixth Sense (Su)

At 3rd level, a spiritualist can spend one of his uses of the commune with spirits ability to reroll a single saving throw that he has failed. He must take the results of the reroll, even if it is lower.

This ability replaces trap sense."

With a PFS 20pt build, it is likely the Dwarven Spiritualist is getting at least a +2 to Reflex, a +2 to Fortitude, and a +3 to Will from abilities alone. Combined with the above racial benefits, feats, and traits, the Dwarven Spiritualist is quite resistant from 3rd level onward.