Claw Pounce states the following:
When you make a charge, you can make a full attack with your claws.
Assuming that only claws can be used during this full attack charge, I've a few questions:
1) If the Catfolk has Feral Combat Training[claws], would the wording of Claw Pounce result in being able to use Flurry of Blows on a charge? It is considered "a full attack action" and with Feral Combat Training, all attacks can be converted to claws.
2) If the Catfolk is a Synthesist with an eidolon which has more than 2 claw attacks, would Claw Pounce come into play?
3) With a few levels in Alchemist (to acquire Vestigial Limbs x2) and levels in other classes to acquire a second set of claws and enough BAB to get 4 attacks per full attack action, would Claw Pounce allow this character to attack with all four claws in the full attack action?
4) Is the wording of Claw Pounce poor enough to allow a full attack with anything (so long as it includes claw attacks as a part of the full attack action)?
1.) I would say no. The Claw Pounce Feat alters the way the full round action "Charge" works. I don't think you're getting a full attack action at the end of up to a double move.
2.) I guess so. If you're really deadset on pouncing, there are easier ways to do it than a 3 feat chain (you have to have claws from aspect of the beast or the Cat's Claws racial trait and the Sprinter racial trait, then Nimble Striker, then Claw Pounce), plus dex and strength requirements, plus waiting until level 14. If you meet all of those requirements, I don't see why you shouldn't enjoy the benefits of claw pounce.
3.) Is the second set of claws on vestigial limbs legal? If so, I don't see why not, but again, you're breaking your neck to get there.
4.) Not to me. I believe the claws only work with your claw attacks. If, for example, you picked up a ring of rat fangs for a bite attack or a helm of the mammoth lord for a gore attack, you would not get them on your charges.
Luckily, though, there's a much easier way to get extra claw attacks from Claw Pounce. You just need the exotic weapon "Claw Blades". They convert your natural attack claws to manufactured light slashing weapons that still benefit from all the perks of the Catfolk racial feats. So, for example, a TWF catfolk ranger can make 6 attacks (with TWF, Improved TWF, and Greater TWF) with his claw blades on a charge if he has the necessary feats, stats, and equipment (a pair of claw blades).
#3- Big huge fat NOPE to the alchemist vestigial arm thing.
When they say 'no extra attacks', they mean 'no extra attacks', or more clearly 'this doesn't increase your number of usable arms as far as attacks go'. Sure, you can use a vestigial arm to attack, but that means one of your original arms has to sit there limply.
Also, I just want to also add- Claws go on the hands for you. I've seen too many half-orc raised catfolk barbarians to leave any chance for that to slip on by.
Now, for the eidolon thing in #2- I am inclined to say no, but heck, you can grab pounce anyway. If you were worried about balance, you would not have allowed synthesist. Similar problems come up if you use more traditional polmorph effects such as beast shape or wildshape... but both of those can give you traditional pounce too, and on a thematic form (tigers, duh). So, in many ways, while it is theoretically important, in practice it is usually a moot question when it comes to 'can I use another form's claws for claw pounce'.
No, a much more interesting and practical question is this: Do Claw blades still allow you to do Claw Pounce?. This item, released in the Advanced Race guide along with catfolk and claw pounce, change your claws into light blades (so that means TWF, iterative attacks, and normal enhancements instead of this Amulet of Mighty Fists nonsense). Essentially, they are meant to make your claws into something easier to work with
I argue that the attacks you make while wearing these are still considered claws for several reasons:
A.) The language of the item seems to indicate that they are still labeled as 'claws'. They give
a +1 enhancement bonus on claw attack rolls with that hand
If they were not still 'claws', then this would enhance nothing
B.) The language does not actually replace the claws, but instead changes how the claws work.The blades grant the wearer a +1 enhancement bonus on claw attack rolls with that hand and change the weapon type from a natural weapon to a light slashing weapon
This indicates that it is still the same weapon, and that the weapon simply gains new properties. This is important because claw pounce says that you can only make attacks with the 'claw' weapon. This idea is further reinforced by the fact that the clawblades, despite being listed as weapons, do not have any weapon statistics themselves.
C.) Considering the fact that claw blades and claw pounce were released in the same book, it would not be too hard to imagine that they were meant to work together. While a lack of contradicting evidence is not a good argument in itself, the fact that the claw blades go to such lengths to alter the claws, rather than replacing them, seems to indicate that their status as 'claws' are important of something, such as claw pounce.If my theory is correct, then there would be little reason to go to such lengths just to get more 'claws'. Sure, you have to deal with TWF problems, but that is much easier to deal with (ranger, fighter, etc) than it is to grow more limbs to use more claws. The monk solution is not too bad though, admittedly. I would particularly like to do it with a sohei for a ton of extra power on the claws.
When they say 'no extra attacks', they mean 'no extra attacks',Yep!
or more clearly 'this doesn't increase your number of usable arms as far as attacks go'. Sure, you can use a vestigial arm to attack, but that means one of your original arms has to sit there limply.Nope.
I'm on my phone so no link until this evening. But SKR, in explaining that very FAQ clarifies that it is only total number of attacks that matters.
How many attacks can a cat person (with claws) make? 4 (claw/claw/unarmed/unarmed)
How many attacks can a cat person (with claws) with 2 vestigial arms make? 4 (claw/claw/claw/claw)
note that this second cat person has to go get more claws somehow and can't make unarmed strikes in addition to this routine where if he had gotten his extra arms from being a synthesist or something else with out the vestigial arm restriction, he could make all 6 attacks (but not of course as part of a claw pounce).
So
-2/-2/-5/-5With every attack after the first hitting with only 1/2 str and power attack
INTO
0/0/0/0
With every hit with full strength and power attack, and they all gain bonuses from things like weapon focus, and of course claw attack.
I was going to post a long, rather sarcastic response, but that would have not been constructive. Instead, I will simply quote the exact parts of the FAQ where they say you can't use racial claws and claws from things like feral mutagens, and give their justifications for it in writing
It means "extra," as in "more than you would be able to make if you didn't have that discovery."
For example, if you're low-level alchemist who uses two-weapon fighting, you can normally make two attacks per round (one with each weapon). If you take the tentacle discovery, on your turn you can make
* two weapon attacks but no tentacle attack,
* a weapon attack with your left hand plus a secondary tentacle attack, or
* a weapon attack with your right hand plus a secondary tentacle attack.
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a tentacle attack on the same turn because the tentacle discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round." This language is calling out that the tentacle is not a standard natural weapon and doesn't follow the standard rules for using natural weapons (which would normally allow you to make the natural weapon attack in addition to your other attacks).Likewise, if you instead took the vestigial arm discovery and put a weapon in that arm's hand, on your turn you can make
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your right hand,
* a weapon attack with your right hand and one with your vestigial arm, or
* a weapon attack with your left hand and one with your vestigial arm,
At no time can you make a left hand weapon attack, a right hand weapon attack, and a vestigial hand weapon attack on the same turn because the vestigial arm discovery says it "does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round."
The exact same restrictions would apply if your race had claws or you had some other ability to add claws to your limbs: the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round, whether used as natural weapons, wielding manufactured weapons, or adding natural weapons to a limb that didn't originally have natural weapons.Remember that these two discoveries do not have any level requirements, and therefore are not especially powerful; permanently adding additional attacks per round is beyond the scope of a discovery available to 2nd-level alchemists.
posted Nov 6, 2013 | back to top
Overall, the devs do not want you to get more than 2 hands worth of work at a time. So while you can try to argue things about kicks, they did explicitly address the exact kind of thing you are trying to set up, and they said 'no'.
Joe loves Rules is totally right. The FAQ deals ONLY with number of attacks being equal. The actual attacks, minuses and other factors mean nothing. If you check out the FAQ thread, this exact question was asked and the DEV posted that while it was unintended, it would work. Seems they forgot every creature can make 2 weapon attacks with unarmed strikes in addition to their normal natural attack array (excluding vestigial arms), meaning that by the FAQ every creature could use their vestigial arm's natural attacks along with their normal natural attack array.
To quote the FAQ "the text of both discoveries says they do not give you any extra attacks per round". As long as you can show you can make the same number of attacks another way, you can use your vestigial arms to 'fill in' for any of those attacks.
On getting 4 claws: Catfolks have it easy. They can start with claws. Then they can get more with Catfolk Exemplar then Aspect of the Beast.
EDIT: 1-3 yes
4: your attack can include claws only.
This can go either way. I can argue that on the pounce the cat can't take the unarmed attacks, thus can't replace those attacks with vestigal arm claw attacks. Either way RAW can support both arguments but I would believe RAI would be no on 3.When they say 'no extra attacks', they mean 'no extra attacks',Yep!
or more clearly 'this doesn't increase your number of usable arms as far as attacks go'. Sure, you can use a vestigial arm to attack, but that means one of your original arms has to sit there limply.Nope.
I'm on my phone so no link until this evening. But SKR, in explaining that very FAQ clarifies that it is only total number of attacks that matters.
How many attacks can a cat person (with claws) make? 4 (claw/claw/unarmed/unarmed)
How many attacks can a cat person (with claws) with 2 vestigial arms make? 4 (claw/claw/claw/claw)
note that this second cat person has to go get more claws somehow and can't make unarmed strikes in addition to this routine where if he had gotten his extra arms from being a synthesist or something else with out the vestigial arm restriction, he could make all 6 attacks (but not of course as part of a claw pounce).
Interesting argument. The OP was asking about extra attacks from BAB, not unarmed attacks. As such, his question isn't based on that.
However, a way to sidestep the issue if you where using it before BAB would allow the easiest way would be using clawblades with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. That'd be 4 claw attacks traded for 4 claw attacks.