Bloodthirsty Dagger and Sneak Attack (Bleeding Attack)

[Silverghost]

How does this weapon work? I have many questions.

pathfinder PRD paizo wrote:

"Price 60,802 gp; Aura moderate evocation; CL 10th; Weight 1 lb.

The blade of this +2 wounding dagger is brightly polished. Even when drenched in a victim's blood, it appears clean and dry moments later, as though it has been newly cleaned.

A bloodthirst dagger rewards its wielder most when used relentlessly against a single target. When attacking a creature that is still bleeding from the bloodthirst dagger's wounding property, the dagger deals an additional +1 point of damage against the target for each bleeding wound the creature possesses (maximum +10). Whenever the wielder of bloodthirst confirms a critical hit with the weapon, she can choose to deal 1d6 points of additional damage for each still-bleeding wound the target possesses (maximum +5d6 damage). This additional damage is not multiplied by the critical hit, but is in addition to the damage normally added for bleeding wounds. Dealing this damage immediately heals all bleeding wounds possessed by the wielder.

1) Does the +1 to +10 bonus damage dealt get multiplied on crit?

2) If I 1st attack with my main hand weapon and add 2d6 bleed from (Bleeding Attack) with a rogue sneak attack then I attack with this dagger in the offhand and score a critical can I use to remove the 2d6 bleed from (Bleeding Attack) for Xd6 damage (max 5d6).

2b) If yes then would I roll the 2d6 for Bleeding Attack to see how much the target would take on it's next turn so I know if it's over 5 points?

3) Can I use Magical Crafting to upgrade this items at a later time to a +3 version or add another effect such as speed to the weapon so long as the weapons total cost stays below 200,000? (This is with regards to pathfinder RPG rules but not pathfinder society as I understand it the tournament play you cannot do this. I'm more talking about for pathfinder rules in general?

[Trekkie90909]

1) Bleed damage is never multiplied, but the +1 to +10 is specified as simply "damage," so yes.

2) You get the bleed damage from bleeding attack on your first sneak attack against an enemy, after that it does nothing until after the enemy stops bleeding. The Wounding property of the blood thirst dagger increases the bleed damage by 1 on that first hit, and then by an additional 1 on each successive hit.

The dagger has an additional effect which causes it to "deal an additional +1 of damage against the target for each point of bleed damage caused by the wounding property up to +10 (take the number of times you have successfully hit the creature with this weapon in melee starting with its first round of bleed and add it as a damage bonus up to +10).

Third the item optionally allows the wielder to deal up to an additional 5d6 additional immediate bleed damage (+ the normal +1 to +10 damage from the number of wounds on the enemy at the time of the critical + the normal bleed damage from the wounding property) based on the current number of points of bleed damage caused by the wounding property of the dagger against that enemy if the wielder so chooses.

Last (I think this is a typo) the dagger heals all bleeding wounds on the wielder of the dagger (it heals YOUR bleeds).

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to stop the bleeding from the item's wounding property on the enemy instead, but then again it is a 60 k gold item, and who's going to protest?

So to answer: No, as written the item does not remove bleeds from your enemy, it removes bleeds from you. Pretty sure that's not what was intended, I think it's a typo. In either event the bleed damage from bleeding attack does not get converted into the xd6 damage; Bleeding Attack simply allows the wounding property of the weapon to activate, and it is the "number of wounds," i.e. points of additional bleed caused by the weapon's wounding property which determines the amount of the critical effect.

2b) This is an issue in one of two possible scenarios: First is if you critical on your very first attack against a non bleeding enemy. In this event you would roll 2d6 bleed from bleeding attack +1 from the wounding property of the weapon +1d6 from the critical property of the weapon, but you would not get the +1 damage from the second ability on the weapon because the enemy does not have a "still bleeding wound which has been damaged by the weapon's wounding property."

In this case you deal the 1d6 critical effect bleed (which is more technically rend damage, but probably called something else so it will stack) up front, and then the bleed damage happens on the opponent's next turn as normal. And all currently bleeding wounds on your body stop bleeding (if there were any).

The second case is if the enemy has received magical healing, a heal check, or any other form of aid which ends bleed damage. In this case the exact same thing happens.

3) My understanding is that for magical weapons you can always pay the upgrade price so long as:

The total weapon price modifier does not exceed +10.

But feel free to ask your GM; it's his ruling that matters.

[Trekkie90909]

For your reference.

Upgrading Magic Items

Adding more magic to an existing item can be quite simple or very math-intensive. If the item's current and proposed abilities follow the normal pricing rules (particularly with weapons, armor, and shields), adding the new abilities is a matter of subtracting the old price from the new price and determining how many days of crafting it takes to make up the difference.

Example: Patrick's wizard decides to use his downtime to increase the armor bonus on his bracers of armor +1 to +3. The price difference between the two types of bracers is 8,000 gp, so Patrick's wizard must spend 8 days and 4,000 gp (half the 8,000 gp price difference) upgrading his bracers' magic. If he has fewer than 8 days before the next adventure, he'll need to finish his crafting while traveling or use accelerated crafting in town to speed up the process.

For most other items, GMs should use the multiple different abilities rule to determine the item's new price: increase the cost of the new ability by 50%, add that to the total price of the item to get the new price. Then subtract the old price from the new price to determine the difference, and determine how many days of crafting it takes to cover the difference.

Example: Lisa's paladin has horseshoes of a zephyr and wants to hire Patrick's wizard to add the powers of horseshoes of speed to her current horseshoes. Their GM, Jessica, decides that this is a suitable item and tells Lisa and Patrick they can proceed. The price of horseshoes of speed is 3,000 gp, increased by 50% for the multiple different abilities rule to 4,500 gp. Patrick's wizard must spend 5 days and Lisa's paladin must pay 2,250 gp (half the 4,500 gp price difference) to add the new property to the horseshoes, resulting in an item worth 10,500 gp (6,000 gp originally + 4,500 gp for the new property).

For specific magic armor and weapons, the price for the base item may be hard to determine, as some abilities may have been priced as plus-based properties and some as gp-based properties. Without knowing which is which, how to increase the price (using the plus-based table or flat gp addition) can't be determined. If this happens and nobody can agree on a fair price, it's best to not upgrade the item, or ask the GM for permission to pseudo-upgrade the item by swapping it for a different item with a price that can be calculated with the normal rules.

Example: Lisa's paladin has a holy avenger that she wants to upgrade with the flaming special ability. a holy avenger has a price of 120,630 gp, but when not in the hands of a paladin, it functions as a + 5 holy cold iron longsword , which has a price of 100,630 gp. The 20,000 gp difference in the prices of these two possible base weapons includes the sword's spell resistance, greater dispel magic once per round, and the limitation that the extra powers don't work for non-paladins. Jessica and Lisa talk about pricing ideas for a while, but can't figure out a fair way to price the upgrade. Lisa decides to upgrade her character's armor instead.

The multiple similar abilities rule is specifically for items that don't use a magic item slot (such as staves), and can't be used for items that do use a magic item slot. The existing staves all use this rule for pricing the cost of their spells. When adding abilities to these items, remember that they're priced with the highest-level spell at 100% of the normal cost, the next-highest at 75%, and all others at 50%, which means that adding a new spell that's between the lowest and highest spell level can alter the cost of the other abilities in the item. Increasing the number of charges required for an ability also affects the cost of that ability (see Creating Staves). Because staff pricing is so complex, a GM might want to forbid adding new abilities to staves, or limit new abilities to the lowest-level spell already present in the item.

[Silverghost]

Quote:

So to answer: No, as written the item does not remove bleeds from your enemy, it removes bleeds from you. Pretty sure that's not what was intended, I think it's a typo. In either event the bleed damage from bleeding attack does not get converted into the xd6 damage; Bleeding Attack simply allows the wounding property of the weapon to activate, and it is the "number of wounds," i.e. points of additional bleed caused by the weapon's wounding property which determines the amount of the critical effect.

Bleeding attack does not apply a 2d6 bleed in this case? I have to use bleeding attack to make the weapons wounding property activate, I can't just hit them with the weapon?

As far the healing of wounds I think it was also intended to heal the bleeds on the victim not on the weirder but who knows. It is a named weapon and a +4 bonus weapon is 32,000gp so the benefit cost is valued at 28,000

[Claxon]

Per the description of wounding:

Quote:

Wounding: A wounding weapon deals 1 point of bleed damage when it hits a creature. Multiple hits from a wounding weapon increase the bleed damage. Bleeding creatures take the bleed damage at the start of their turns. Bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or through the application of any spell that cures hit point damage. A critical hit does not multiply the bleed damage. Creatures immune to critical hits are immune to the bleed damage dealt by this weapon.

Bleed damage is not multiplied on a critical. The additional damage the dagger causes also likely should not be multiplied on a critical either.

[Trekkie90909]

Bleeding attack only ever applies damage on your first sneak attack against a non bleeding target. Bleed damage does not stack, so you take the higher of bleeding attack or any current bleed damage that is ongoing.

I was confusing wounding and blood letting earlier :P. Wounding weapons can start bleeds on their own.

Re claxton: The bonus damage is just damage, not bleed damage so it would multiply.

[Claxon]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Bleeding attack only ever applies damage on your first sneak attack against a non bleeding target. Bleed damage does not stack, so you take the higher of bleeding attack or any current bleed damage that is ongoing.

I was confusing wounding and blood letting earlier :P. Wounding weapons can start bleeds on their own.

Re claxton: The bonus damage is just damage, not bleed damage so it would multiply.

The additional damage isn't specified, though since it's connected to bleed damage it probably is.

RAW your write, but RAI I think you're probably wrong. Since it doesn't actually call out what kind of damage it is, the best bet is to ask your GM if they would consider it bleed damage or not.

[Silverghost]

Okay great. Thanks for the tips guys.

What I was hoping to do is is Sneak Attack with my rapier and roll the 2d6 for (Bleeding Attack)to see how many "bleeds" the enemy "would take on their next turn.

Then I would attack with my off-hand bloodthirsty dagger. If it crit I would immediately remove the "bleeds" from the (Bleeding Attack) bonus of my sneak attack to do extra (d6's) on the crit because of the dagger's effect.

So I'd lose out on the flat bonus damage for non-crits because the 2d6 bleed would be greater than the "Wounding" and the dagger only triggers the flat damage on bleeds from the "Wounding" property. But it doesn't say anything about where the bleed has to come from for the (Max 5d6 bonus).

Maybe RAI would say that the "bleeds" for the 5d6 have to be from the "wounding" property and not other sources like (Bleeding Attack).