This is a question about the Saboteur's Complex Bombs discovery. One thread suggested that you get the non-damage effects of both bombs. A guide to the Alchemist (a prominent one I think) has suggested you lose all non-damage effects of the bomb types.
Clearly, there is a large power gap between the two interpretations. Frankly, I don't see that the complex bomb would really be useful at all if it only took the damages and not the other effects. But what is the general consensus on how this discovery works?
Quote: Complex Bomb: When the saboteur creates a bomb, he can choose to have it modified by two different discoveries that modify a bomb's damage (those discoveries marked with an asterisk). Each discovery modifies half the bomb's damage dice, rounding down. For example, a concussive/frost bomb from a 9th-level saboteur deals 2d4 points of sonic damage + 2d6 points of frost damage. Creating a complex bomb counts as 2 daily uses of the bomb ability. To me it seems pretty clear that it only applies to discovers which affect bomb damage such as Acid Bomb, Concussive Bomb, Explosive Bomb, Force Bomb, Frost Bomb, and Shock Bombs.
The exmaple that is given even goes on to illustrate this by only talking about damage dice types.
So, it seems using complex bomb prevents you from using discoveries that remvoe the normal damage such as Stink Bomb or Poison Bomb.
Any bomb that doesn't explicitly remove damage still damages. Such as Stink Bomb.
But even with that aside... Concussive Bomb, Force Bomb, Frost Bomb, etc. all still have additional effects (potential deafening, proning, staggering....) so the question is still entirely relevant.
Granted, this does perhaps bring into question if you can use it on Breath Weapon Bomb or perhaps even Immolation (which changes how damage is allocated, but not really the type).... but the ability also says the ones with *'s as a point of clarification.
PRD wrote: Complex Bomb: When the saboteur creates a bomb, he can choose to have it modified by two different discoveries that modify a bomb's damage (those discoveries marked with an asterisk). Each discovery modifies half the bomb's damage dice, rounding down. For example, a concussive/frost bomb from a 9th-level saboteur deals 2d4 points of sonic damage + 2d6 points of frost damage. Creating a complex bomb counts as 2 daily uses of the bomb ability. So really I guess there are now 2 questions.
1) Do you get both effects (beyond damage), or none?
2) Can you use this for all discoveries with an asterisk (such as Breath Weapon Bomb) even if they don't change the damage? [Although, in all fairness, they generally at least change what targets are damage or the timeline/manner that damage is dealt in]
I would say that if you made a Concussive Explosive bomb you would get a chance to deafen and immolate the creature.
However, no, not all discoveries marked with an asterisk are valid. Only the ones that modify damage. So as I said I don't think Stink Bomb or Poison Bomb are valid to be used with Complex Bomb, or other bombs similar to them.
Except that they do
FAQ wrote: Alchemist: Does an inferno bomb, poison bomb, smoke bomb, or stink bomb cause bomb damage in addition to the special effect listed for those discoveries?
Yes. For example, a smoke bomb deals bomb damage and creates an area of smoke.
posted March 2011
EDIT: That is to say that Poison and Stink Bombs do. I'm unsure of how to treat something like Immolation Bomb or Breath Weapon Bomb.
DrakeRoberts wrote: Except that they do
FAQ wrote: Alchemist: Does an inferno bomb, poison bomb, smoke bomb, or stink bomb cause bomb damage in addition to the special effect listed for those discoveries?
Yes. For example, a smoke bomb deals bomb damage and creates an area of smoke.
posted March 2011
EDIT: That is to say that Poison and Stink Bombs do. I'm unsure of how to treat something like Immolation Bomb or Breath Weapon Bomb.
Right, except still wrong. The bomb still deals damage, but does not modify the bombs damage. It adds an effect, that is not damage, and does not modify the damage.
I'm open to hearing other informaiton, but that FAQ doesn't change my current understanding because those Discoveries do not meet the prerequisite of "modify a bomb's damage".
Claxon wrote: DrakeRoberts wrote: Except that they do
FAQ wrote: Alchemist: Does an inferno bomb, poison bomb, smoke bomb, or stink bomb cause bomb damage in addition to the special effect listed for those discoveries?
Yes. For example, a smoke bomb deals bomb damage and creates an area of smoke.
posted March 2011
EDIT: That is to say that Poison and Stink Bombs do. I'm unsure of how to treat something like Immolation Bomb or Breath Weapon Bomb.
Right, except still wrong. The bomb still deals damage, but does not modify the bombs damage. It adds an effect, that is not damage, and does not modify the damage.
I'm open to hearing other informaiton, but that FAQ doesn't change my current understanding because those Discoveries do not meet the prerequisite of "modify a bomb's damage". That's fine, that's closer to what I was getting at with question 2. I thought you were restating your original statement of:
Claxon wrote: So, it seems using complex bomb prevents you from using discoveries that remvoe the normal damage such as Stink Bomb or Poison Bomb.
Claxon wrote: So, it seems using complex bomb prevents you from using discoveries that remvoe the normal damage such as Stink Bomb or Poison Bomb. Just to clarify, Stink Bomb and Poison doesn't remove normal damage. Source. But it doesn't modify a bomb's damage either, so it doesn't work with complex bomb nonetheless.
EDIT: I can't catch ninjas.
I still question if 'modify the damage' includes modifying the effect (aka adding something to the damage, or the time the damage is dealt over or whatnot. I can definitely see a reading that doesn't allow it, but the parenthetical following that line seems to specify that the allowqble bomb types are "those discoveries marked by an asterisk". I'm not sure why one should be more correct than the other.
DrakeRoberts wrote:
That's fine, that's closer to what I was getting at with question 2. I thought you were restating your original statement of:
Claxon wrote: So, it seems using complex bomb prevents you from using discoveries that remvoe the normal damage such as Stink Bomb or Poison Bomb.
Yeah sorry, I changed my position. And I think I was just loose with wording in my original post, because I knew those particular discoveries didn't remove damage. What I meant was that they didn't modify.
Sometimes there is just a disconnect between brain and the keyboard. An ID10T error if you will.
DrakeRoberts wrote: I still question if 'modify the damage' includes modifying the effect (aka adding something to the damage, or the time the damage is dealt over or whatnot. I can definitely see a reading that doesn't allow it, but the parenthetical following that line seems to specify that the allowqble bomb types are "those discoveries marked by an asterisk". I'm not sure why one should be more correct than the other. Any argument for/against this?
Well DrakeRoberts wrote: I still question if 'modify the damage' includes modifying the effect Damage is damage, not effect.
Also: A Complex Bomb is a seperate kind of bomb, not both of the modified bombs that you put together. Complex Bomb doesn't state that it will grant any other effects from the bombs you create it from, it only splits the damage types.
Ex. What I mean is that the staggering from frost bombs don't come into play when you throw a complex bomb made of frost bomb + something else. The same way it wouldn't create a cloud from smoke or stink bomb.
This is RAW. However, as a DM I wouldn't mind. Sure you can get out Stink Bomb and another damage type than fire at the same turn in the same action, but you spend resourses as if it was two. Sure action economy is much, but for it to work you still need to spend at least three discoveries (four in the case of stink bomb) AND play a specific race restricted archtype.
Rub-Eta wrote: WellDrakeRoberts wrote: I still question if 'modify the damage' includes modifying the effect Damage is damage, not effect.
Also: A Complex Bomb is a seperate kind of bomb, not both of the modified bombs that you put together. Complex Bomb doesn't state that it will grant any other effects from the bombs you create it from, it only splits the damage types.
Ex. What I mean is that the staggering from frost bombs don't come into play when you throw a complex bomb made of frost bomb + something else. The same way it wouldn't create a cloud from smoke or stink bomb.
This is RAW. However, as a DM I wouldn't mind. Sure you can get out Stink Bomb and another damage type than fire at the same turn in the same action, but you spend resourses as if it was two. Sure action economy is much, but for it to work you still need to spend at least three discoveries (four in the case of stink bomb) AND play a specific race restricted archtype. Well actually, the RAW says that the bomb is modified by two discoveries. It says that the pool of discoveries to choose from is that of the ones with asterisks. It says that each of the two discoveries modifies half of the damage.... which to me, at least, is giving a way to resolve the fact that damage can't be of two types... and so you couldn't have 4d6 FIRE and COLD damage, it'd have to be 2d6 FIRE and 2d6 COLD damage. The splitting also helps with the fact that some discoveries modify the damage die... applying the damage part half to each keeps problems and confusion from happening when one uses d4's and one d6's.
I think the interpretation is most exact RAW with 2 sticky points:
Firstly:
Complex Bomb wrote: he can choose to have it modified by two different discoveries that modify a bomb's damage (those discoveries marked with an asterisk) Seems to refer to 2 different categories potentially... those that modify damage and those that are marked with an asterisk. Unless we account effects as part of damage modification. Since RAW mentions both explicitly, I'm not sure how to reconcile this conflict.
Secondly:
If you were to use both Explosive and Frost, would the extended splash radius do 1/2 cold and 1/2 fire, or would it only be the fire part of the damage?
By belief on the latter is that the effect would apply to the whole thing, doing 1/2 cold and 1/2 fire in the increased splash radius as well as the original.
If you keep reading to: Complex Bomb wrote: Each discovery modifies half the bomb's damage dice, rounding down. For example, a concussive/frost bomb from a 9th-level saboteur deals 2d4 points of sonic damage + 2d6 points of frost damage. This is the only lines about the effect of Complex Bomb, it does not mention anything else but the damage dice. Nowehere does it mention that you applie the other effects, such as staggered or deafened from respective bomb.
Rub-Eta wrote: If you keep reading to: Complex Bomb wrote: Each discovery modifies half the bomb's damage dice, rounding down. For example, a concussive/frost bomb from a 9th-level saboteur deals 2d4 points of sonic damage + 2d6 points of frost damage. This is the only lines about the effect of Complex Bomb, it does not mention anything else but the damage dice. Nowehere does it mention that you applie the other effects, such as staggered or deafened from respective bomb.
I disagree. From both a RAW and RAI standpoint.
The discovery states that you can have a bomb modified by two discoveries at once. Those modification normally add special effects. So unless it says otherwise you should get the special effects. Changing the type of damage needs clarification, which is why that's the only topic that gets clarifying text. Adding multiple effects don't conflict and don't require addition text beyond the initial statement that you can combine the modifications that produce them.
From an RAI standpoint, it'd make the discovery a really poor pick. It's a rare occasion where you have multiple enemies of different vulnerabilities clustered together which is really the only situation the 'damage only' interpretation would be useful. And even in that situation I imagine most players would rather go for full damage to knock out the enemies with one of the vulnerabilities so they'd have less turns fighting back. Especially since the 'round down' rule on the halving means you're taking a penalty on your damage for half your levels. Having the combined specials gives a reason for the discovery to exist.
While I'm not sure if it works that way, I must say that I like your way better. Or otherwise it would be, as you said, a poor pick. You expend an entire bomb extra to use it, then it really should do something more than two types of damage and maybe less total damage than a normal bomb if rounded down.
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