I recently received word from my group. Things are changing. We're planning to finish off a few more modules then move on to something else. Right now, we're level 3 and will probably only make it to level 8ish by the time we're done. The Gnome Conjurer I used last week was a little lackluster (missed almost all of his ranged touch spells, the one spell he did get off, glitterdust, did help a little, but wasn't a gamechanger). I'm bringing in a new character for the rest of this run, and I'm wondering what's fun (and effective) with the following restrictions:
1) The DM is sticking to PFS pretty closely (which, frankly, I can't stand. It really puts a strangle hold on things).
2) We can also only use the core book. So, races have to be Human, Dwarf, Halfling, Gnome, Elf, Half-Elf, Half-Orc. The classes can only be Barb, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard. Multi-classes are allowed, but they have to fit some kind of character concept.
3) We already have a hard-hitting barb (she did more damage throwing a chair at a guy, than I did with my one fireball I was able to cast from a scroll), a pretty tanky cleric, a rogue that's meleeish, and a blaster sorcerer. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, especially since I'm doing a mid-campaign swap.
I doubt we need another melee character, but I'm not sure what I can do at range that would be terribly effective. My conjurer is just plain sucking outside of summon monster. A lot of what I wanted to do with him, I can't do now that I've read the PFS rules (mainly because of the removal of item creation). Anyway, I'm at a bit of a loss of what to do. I can't think of anything to fit into this group that would be fun and still grab his fair share of the spotlight. Some kind of archer? A different kind of spellcaster? Who knows? Any thoughts? Thanks.
Well, sticking within those constraints (and trying to avoid any judgments about them), I'm going to suggest a Human Bard. Arcane Strike is you're friend, Inspire courage helps everyone, and a decent selection of spells and skills. Classic 5th man.
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Either bard or archer-type would mesh well with the current party. I would suggest getting a reach weapon, ie longspear for the bard, anything else for a fighter. the reason being 1. you can get behind the barb or the tank-cleric and support if you are out of spells and 2. in case you can't use missile weapons(confined spaces, etc.). If you get flanking sneak attack also helps.
Here is a simple build.
Spoiler:
Race: Human.
Stats: Dex, then Str, then Con, then anything.
Assuming 20 point buy:
st 15 dx 15(17) cn 14 in 10 ws 12 ch 10Feats/leveling:
1 Point Blank Shot
1 Precise Shot
3 Rapid Shot
4 +1 to dx
5 Deadly Aim
7 ManyshotKey items: Masterwork Composite Longbow, Str modifier +2 (if you have better str, then increase as needed).
Arrows: Some cold iron, some silver.Options:
Fighter, Ranger, even Paladin all work with this. Ranger and Fighter let you gain feats earlier and have solid static bonuses. Ranger /Paladin have secondary abilities plus better saves.Suggestions by class:
Fighter: Iron Will or weapon focus and specialization with longbow if you want even higher static bonuses.
Ranger: Improved Precise Shot at 6th.
st 15 dx 15(17) cn 14 in 10 ws 12 ch 10
I just used the calculator on the wiki and that puts me at 21 points. I was able to approximate it with:
st 14 dx 16(18) cn 14 in 10 ws 12 ch 8
Good enough, I figure?
Party buffer or battlefield control. Add some utility spells. This would mean a caster. Bard is great since you have a large party. Do you have a Face?
Alternately, become everyone's best buddy and play a Life Oracle.
I'd keep the st 15 and dx 17, drop wis and through that odd point into whatever mental stat you want.
Really? I was thinking I would need a Wis of at least 13 eventually. I figure the wolf familiar is my best bet and I'll eventually need to be able to cast reduce animal as when it gets its upgrade, it will be a large animal and I'll need reduce so it can come with me in dungeons.
But, I do see the value of the 15/17 strength and dex. I'll have the 18 dex soon enough, and I can keep my cha at 10:
st 15 dx 15(17) cn 13 in 10 ws 13 ch 10
That extra point in Con will probably never pay off, though.
you know more about the nuances of your typical campaign then we on the outside.
Not really. I've only played with this group once so far. :D
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PFS really doesn't limit things very much. Certainly not enough that I would ever describe it as a strangle hold. Lacking item creation just means you buy things. And PFS privides very easy access and gives out enough cash that you can buy what you need without item creation. It really isn't a loss.
Very obviously the CRB only is a much greater limiting factor. But I still don't consider it as horrible as some people. I know of several CRB only campaigns in my area and I know of at least a couple people that play CRB only even if allowed more just because they only have to buy/bring one book and they can know it very well.
Having said that, you are just getting close to the levels where a conjurer starts doing well (3rd level spells). Glitter dust, greasing weapons/floors, etc... are fun and help though they usually are not game changers. My CRB sorc started taking some buff spells and often found those more appreciated. Your wizard could just start prepping more buff spells and have the conjurations for when there is a serious enough fight that will last longer than a couple of rounds to make the summon monster worth while.
In an actual PFS module there was a fight against a very powerful outsider (no spoilers) that our particular party was having a difficult time hurting. I went invisible and started summoning clouds of lantern archons (goes through DR). The monster had fairly powerful attacks so could easily kill an archon. But then he wasn't hitting the party. Or the archons started building up and eventually 7 times 2d6 of damage started really adding up quickly. I don't think some of the others realized it at first but if you give some one time to summon a bunch of anything it can become pretty potent or at least a severe distraction.
However, if you really want to bring a new character:
An archer won't step on toes, but I don't think it sounds like the group really needs another damage dealer.
Buffing, enabling, and battlefield control seem like more useful skills. As stated, a bard is excellent for that.
PFS really doesn't limit things very much. Certainly not enough that I would ever describe it as a strangle hold. Lacking item creation just means you buy things.
First, item creation is a huge money saver, especially when one's build depends on it. Additionally, there are tons of things that are off limits because they aren't on "the list" that are rather important to this build. Things I could easily make myself if item creation (or even just scribe scroll) was allowed. The whole Chronicle sheet thing is just crap for so many reasons. There's someone who might be taking over running PF when the current DMs leave (they are planning to move in October). The prospective DM has already decided to chuck the PFS.
Back on point, consider a conjurer/loremaster as well. First, I have to take spell focus in place of item creation, which is a bit of a waste as most of my spells have no saves. On top of that, PFS play stops at level 12. I can't even take loremaster levels before level 8, so I don't even have a chance as the better secrets. I'm not saying the build isn't serviceable, but it really gets cut off at the knees here. I would totally want to use it for a home game, but PFS really changes things.
I wanted to give the bard a chance, but considering this game is likely to end by level 8, nevermind the level 12 cap, I'd only have access to a small handful of spells, and probably third level max. On top of that, I wasn't terribly impressed by the spell list. Aside from first level (which is full of contextual spells and very few good general use spells), they are mostly just "kinda nice little buffs" to have around considering the level you get them. The bard would effectively be a second string lucky rabbit's foot for the party.
I figure the ranger not only has a substandard spell list of his own, but he can still pull his own weight when he runs out of his handful of spells.
I don't think some of the others realized it at first but if you give some one time to summon a bunch of anything it can become pretty potent or at least a severe distraction.
I agree. I think summmoning is great. It's why conjuration is my favorite school. I'd give a summoner a whirl if it was an option in this game. Every hit a summon takes is often at least one less CLW the cleric has to deal out. And, if they get in a little damage as well, that's a bonus.
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Well if looked at objectively, I disagree; but I won't argue PFS with you since you've already decided you don't like it.
The primary thing the bard provides is the various inspire abilities. The buff spells are just stacking gravy on top of that. They are still better, earlier, and more than ranger spells. Buffing, especially the whole party buffs, like inspire X are often much more beneficial than just another damage dealer. Very much not second string.
I don't know what it was called, but long ago there was a thread dedicated to 'researching' this. If you have a 3-4 person group (without a buffer) and add a well played damage dealing caster, it would increase the CR of encounters that could be handled by usually +1 occasionally +2.
If you have a 3-4 person group (without a buffer) and add a well played buffing caster, it would increase the CR of encounters that could be handled by usually +2 occasionally +3. If it was a bard it was almost always +3 and sometimes +4.
Now that thread did not limit itself to CRB. But that open build worked for the damage caster as well as the buffer. And most people think damage casters gained more in the additional books than buffers did. So the results should still be in the ballpark for a CRB only game.
However, they are very much not to everyone's play style. Many people simply don't want the 'assist cred' they want to be the one doing things to the bad guys. Very understandable and there is nothing wrong with that. Most of the guys in my current home game float down that river. I happen to like both. So in that group I am often a buffing caster. So most of my PFS characters (other than the sorc) are more 'do stuff to the bad guys characters.'
A ranger archer is a perfectly viable PC. If I recall correctly, a CRB only ranger archer is usually suggested to be at least something of a switch hitter. Since some of the stuff that allows them to completely ignore melee threats is in the UC. I think the recommendation is to take the archer style feats and then a few of your regular feats should be at least power attack and weapon focus for some two handed weapon for when things get next to you.
Is your GM GMing PFS officially or is he just using PFS guidelines and then restricting them further?
Well if looked at objectively
The primary thing the bard provides is the various inspire abilities
I think I'm looking at it pretty objectively. I don't have a hate-on for bards. In fact, I tend to prefer characters/classes with some style.
In PFS, a bard misses out on about 1/3 of them due to the level cap. Inspire courage is probably the best thing it has going for it, but it's only a +1 to +2 bonus for most of your shelf life.
I don't know what it was called, but long ago there was a thread dedicated to 'researching' this. If you have a 3-4 person group (without a buffer) and add a well played damage dealing caster, it would increase the CR of encounters that could be handled by usually +1 occasionally +2.
If you have a 3-4 person group (without a buffer) and add a well played buffing caster, it would increase the CR of encounters that could be handled by usually +2 occasionally +3. If it was a bard it was almost always +3 and sometimes +4.
I call shenanigans. I can see someone making an out-of-combat case for bards, but they're mediocre at archery and spellcasting compared to other classes (except the ranger or paladin). Most of the spells they do have are mind-affecting enchantments (weakest school). They have the songs, but the best one (for combat) only increases accuracy by 5-10% and damage output by not much more than that (if you account for both the direct damage bonus and indirect bonus from better accuracy) before the PFS cap. Sure, they also have UMD, but it takes a few levels or so before you can really count on it. Aside from cure wands and a few other miscellaneous useful cleric trinkets, there's nothing they can do with UMD that a wizard can't do without it.
I mean, if I'm wrong, I'm fine with that. I'd love to see a concrete rebuttal.
However, they are very much not to everyone's play style. Many people simply don't want the 'assist cred' they want to be the one doing things to the bad guys.
I'm fine with the assist cred. I'd rather be a controller than striker or tank. The conjurer I was building had almost no direct damage (aside from his acid dart SLA, which never hit anyway :P). In fact, not only was evo and necro his opposed schools, he was avoiding the spells entirely. It was all summons, buffs, debuffs, and other field controls. But, spellcasters don't really even start making a splash until after a few levels or so, and by the time they come into their own, the game is over by PFS rules. Who came up with this level 12 crap anyway?
But, I don't see how anyone can say a bard is a better controller than a conjurer (or summoner for that matter).
Is your GM GMing PFS officially or is he just using PFS guidelines and then restricting them further?
I honestly don't know. I just got involved with this group a week ago, but I think they're actually flying fast and loose because they aren't part of the official PFS whatever. But, I've mostly read the PFS rules since and I'm not sure it all adds up. The restrictions that are really nagging at me are:
1) No item creation.
2) Level 12 cap.
3) Can only buy basic equipment (masterwork included) from the CRB and what's on the chronicle sheets.
4) No party treasure, instead, you "lose" everything you get during an adventure. Some of it is added to the chronicle sheet after the adventure and you can buy it back with gold you found during the adventure. (which is ridiculous on so many levels)
I would be surprised if it was the DMs throwing further restrictions into the mix. I believe this is their first foray into PFS. I haven't known them long, but they are pretty easy going people. From what I've heard, the reason why they are trying to wrap this up (aside from the move) is because they're not digging PFS and are thinking of switching to D&D 5e (or whatever they're calling it). The GM that is probably taking over in October said that if he does, he's going to toss PFS.
So, in short, I just need to survive until October. At that point, we're probably starting something from scratch, non-PFS PF or otherwise.
Low level access to haste and inspire courage are not weak. The bard is the best force multiplier in the game.
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I think I'm looking at it pretty objectively. I don't have a hate-on for bards. In fact, I tend to prefer characters/classes with some style. ...Well if looked at objectively
The primary thing the bard provides is the various inspire abilities
Ok, you're taking things out of context and combining them. That is just rude and insulting.
I was just trying to point out some options and other possibilities. You don't have to take them.
If you don't want to talk about things don't bring it up. But the things you say you don't like don't match with what you are attributing the problem to or with the opinions of almost anyone else. Expect disagreement when you take an extreme position contrary to most everyone else.
I hope you find some way to enjoy your gaming experience.
If you don't want to talk about things don't bring it up.
I actually said, "I mean, if I'm wrong, I'm fine with that. I'd love to see a concrete rebuttal." Getting offended because I'm not a fan of PFS isn't a rebuttal. I'm not even sure it's germane to the conversation.
How am I being rude and insulting? I quote you directly and responded with concrete points. What you had previously (vaguely) said was that there was this thing that someone wrote a long time ago that proved bards let the party handle higher CR encounters. So sue me for wanting to get to the bottom of it. If you could actually find this thing that someone wrote, I would love to read it.
Low level access to haste and inspire courage are not weak. The bard is the best force multiplier in the game.
I don't understand. A bard gets access to haste at CL 7. The wizard gets it at CL 5. And, the wizard can just scribe a bunch of scrolls of it (without taking an extra feat) to cast it a ton more than the bard. Well, at least he could if PFS didn't kibosh item crafting.
And, I never said inspire courage was weak. I actually said it was the best thing going for the bard. It has the very specific effect of helping to boost the rest party's damage output. Inspire courage is great. Is it going to do more for the party all around than what a conjurer can throw into the mix (after a few levels to get the ball rolling, obviously)? I don't see how it's possible. I wonder, does the extra damage (in a balanced party of four other PCs) from lower levels of inspire courage even trump the damage that an archer is going to be able to put in the mix? I'm estimating not.
I'm not hating the bard. Really. My most favorite character ever was a gnome bard with a delusion where he thought he was a great artificer (he had craft wondrous items and would really talk up his simple creations). He could potentially be a halfway serviceable controller with how he used illusion spells, but it was a little dicey, illusion being what it is. His performance (oratory) was actually rather dull (yet enthralling) stories about the most mundane things. He was balls to the wall fun, that's for sure. But, to be honest, when the crap hit the fan, he was kind of dead weight. However, this was an easy-going homebrew game with a pretty robust social element, not a pregen published dungeon-crawly module. Something like what we're playing now would eat that character alive.
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I honestly don't know. I just got involved with this group a week ago, but I think they're actually flying fast and loose because they aren't part of the official PFS whatever. But, I've mostly read the PFS rules since and I'm not sure it all adds up. The restrictions that are really nagging at me are:
1) No item creation.
2) Level 12 cap.
3) Can only buy basic equipment (masterwork included) from the CRB and what's on the chronicle sheets.
4) No party treasure, instead, you "lose" everything you get during an adventure. Some of it is added to the chronicle sheet after the adventure and you can buy it back with gold you found during the adventure. (which is ridiculous on so many levels)
Well, points 1, 2, and 4 may not be to your liking, but they're there to keep things fair in an organized play environment. Remember, the entire purpose of PFS is to be able to get together with random groups of people in public environments like game stores and conventions and play with fair rules. It's a completely different experience than a home campaign.
If item creation were allowed, it would break the wealth by level curve for players who were using it, giving them a major advantage of those who aren't.
The losing party treasure and just getting the cash for it thing just makes it fair for splitting treasure in an organized play campaign. For instance, if they didn't do it that way, and you had 3 fighters at the table, who would get to keep the +2 flaming great sword that you found during the adventure? This way, everyone at the same level has had the chance to earn roughly the same money, and buy what they want with it, including that special sword.
The level 12 cap in PFS is lower than some people would like, but again, it does make sense to cap things a little lower in organized play than a home game. At higher levels, some PCs can completely break some scenarios with insane magic that renders parts of an adventure irrelevant. Other groups might not have PCs who can do that, and be seriously disadvantaged by comparison, especially if they don't have a well balanced group show up for that particular adventure.
In a home game, the GM can take that into account and adjust things accordingly. In organized play, where you want everyone to have the same experience, it's much harder for them to churn out higher level adventures that can be played with no customization by the GM and still be playable by a wide variety of groups. Again, it makes sense for the organized play environment, but I can see how it might annoy people that a home group copies it.
But there are also level 12+ modules (as opposed to PFS "scenarios") in Pathfinder that have been sanctioned for play by "retired" PFS characters. So your group can continue to play by PFS rules all the way up to level 18 or 19, if you want to buy those modules.
Your point 3 isn't how things are done in PFS, so if that's how your group is doing it, then they're being MUCH more restrictive than necessary. In PFS, there are three ways you can gain access to buy any item:
1. "Always available" items: Non-magical items, level 1 (or lower) potions, scrolls, or wands, +1 weapons, armor, or shields, and basic Wayfinders. Anyone can buy these at any time.
2. If it's on a chronicle sheet for any adventure you've played, you can buy it at any time.
3. Fame. In every adventure, you can earn up to 2 fame points. Once your fame reaches certain levels (there's a chart in the Guide to Organized Play), you can buy ANY item that's legal in PFS (which is most stuff from most Paizo books) up to a particular gold amount. For instance, anyone with 5 fame points can buy items worth 500 gp or lower. Anyone with 9 fame can buy items worth 1500 or lower. Below levels 4 or 5, this restricts people from buying stuff like stat boosting belts and headbands earlier than they really should, but by around level 5 or 6, it ends up becoming irrelevant, because your gold doesn't keep pace with your spending limit.
If your group isn't using that 3rd one, or making some other rule to let people buy magic items that aren't on your chronicle sheets, then that would seriously restrict players from buying necessary magic items for almost any build.
Personally, I really like PFS. Some of the published adventures for it are just fantastic, with all but one or two of the worst being at least average quality. There are quirks like these that are intended to keep things fair in organized play that you have to put up with. But the flexibility of being able to switch GMs each game, play with whoever happens to show up, etc gives a level of flexibility to playing that makes it easier to get a game going than a home campaign, in many cases. And you can go to public stores or conventions and play with total strangers to meet new people.
So it has its advantages and disadvantages, but as much as I like it, I wouldn't run a home campaign based on it while not actually being part of PFS, if I had a stable group of players who always shows up. If you can actually get all the same people to show up weekly, why not run an actual home campaign instead?
As for conjuration at these levels, I'd say a conjurer wizard will probably start to get good around level 5. I actually play a conjuring focused sorcerer in PFS, and I'm at level 7 now. I throw out a Haste at the start of every fight, then play controller with Glitterdust, Grease, and/or Create Pit. I also have Augment Summoning and the Summon Monster spells, but I only summon if I'm in a group that needs the extra meat shields/flankers.
It's good flexibility in a PFS environment where I don't know who I'll be playing with every week. But in a group that completely lacks damage dealers, I'd usually play a different character instead. Again, that flexibility is one of the advantages of playing PFS, so I get to play a variety of PCs and bring whichever fits the group that week.
...they're there to keep things fair in an organized play environment. Remember, the entire purpose of PFS is to be able to get together with random groups of people in public environments like game stores and conventions and play with fair rules.
I find it ironic that Paizo has to take an axe to their own game in the interest of fair play.
And, is it fair? A bunch of builds get nerfed, while others can capitalize off the level cap and find new ways to pull out ahead. It doesn't really level the playing field, just tilts it in another direction.
The losing party treasure and just getting the cash for it thing just makes it fair for splitting treasure in an organized play campaign.
I understand the rationale for it, but it totally blows the verisimilitude and immersion of an RPG. Though that probably is already blown in a venue where random characters are walking in and out every week. But it turns the game into d20 Diablo. And, if PFS is trying to control for abuse, this is one thing that gets totally abused from what I've seen. Adventure ends, there was one CLW wand found over the course of the adventure. Everyone buys a wand from the chronicle sheet, then gives it to the cleric. Not only could they use during the adventure the one wand that they found, they get four fresh wands for the next gig.
So it has its advantages and disadvantages, but as much as I like it, I wouldn't run a home campaign based on it while not actually being part of PFS, if I had a stable group of players who always shows up. If you can actually get all the same people to show up weekly, why not run an actual home campaign instead?
That's a good point. I've never had a situation where I've wanted to game and there wasn't a group of friends available to do so regularly. These GMs are running this out of the FLGS, and while half the group regularly shows (and also runs a separate home game every other week), the other half are random drop ins.
As for conjuration at these levels, I'd say a conjurer wizard will probably start to get good around level 5. I actually play a conjuring focused sorcerer in PFS, and I'm at level 7 now.
You kind of have to go the sorcerer route. You can't even depend on getting scrolls to flesh out a spellbook every level, so you only get your meager 2 level up picks. Between creation and the cap, that's 30 spells known. Granted it's 10 more than the sorcerer, but you still have to prep. Obviously, you'll find some stuff along the way, but it's not necessarily going to be what you would want for your build. In fact, odds are, it won't be.
Without scribe scroll, PFS kills controller wizards. I considered doing a sorcerer at first (before knowing PFS rules), but being able to build up a stash of scrolls of anything in my spellbook on hand means I could eventually cast all the situational spells that weren't worth daily memorizing. With the sorcerer, I'd have to scrap all that and just pick a more limited, but often generally effective, set of combos. Still, if it takes 5 levels for a character to even be serviceable, and the game only goes to 12, I'd rather play something that's fun the whole way through.
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If this is a group running out of a store, I have to wonder why they're not just going full blown PFS. I suppose they might not want to have to bring new players up from level 1 every time, or allow all the crazy builds you see in PFS when all the books are opened up to players.
In PFS, you can buy whatever scrolls you want. See my point #3 of how to buy items in my last post. So getting spells into your spellbook as a wizard just costs money, but there's no limitation on quantity. If your spellbook gets too full, just buy a second one and start filling that up.
You just can't scribe your own, so the save DCs and stuff for bought scrolls will be lower than for a wizard in a home campaign scribing his own.
And yes, there are plenty of builds that take a few levels to get warmed up. Other than pure martial front liners, pretty much any PC won't hit its stride until at least level 3. Heck, even my tank fighter won't be able to do what he was designed for until he can afford full plate at level 2. With casters, it takes even longer. That's just the facts of playing from level 1 in any RPG, but playing from level 1 just makes sense for an organized play system.
But I still had fun playing my sorcerer at low levels. I intentionally went with a bloodline that gives me a combat power for something to do 7 times per day from level 1, and made liberal use of the Daze cantrip, plus a few scrolls I bought along the way. The fact that I only had 4 castings of my 1st level spells per day at level 1 was limiting, but didn't make the character useless or boring.
But obviously, you like higher level play and item crafting enough that PFS doesn't appeal to you. It's not for everybody.
If this is a group running out of a store, I have to wonder why they're not just going full blown PFS.
I don't know. I think part of it is that they don't have to time to do the official 4-hour sessions (this game only goes 2-3), and I think they just don't like some of the limitations so they hand-wave them away. I might be misunderstanding them on buying scrolls though. I was under the impression that, unless it's mundane, you have to wait for a drop.
But obviously, you like higher level play and item crafting enough that PFS doesn't appeal to you.
I like low-level play, as long as it eventually builds to something. This character I built was eventually going to go loremaster, but with PFS, you barely get half the loremaster levels (and all the cool stuff that makes the PrC worth it) before it's time to retire.