casting spells with rods

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

This came up in a pfs game the other day. I've never heard it before, and believe I know the answer but wanted to see what people's thoughts were.

I was casting a spell with a rod. I was playing a wizard. The GM said I couldn't do so without eschew materials. I said you could and he said that you needed gestures and manipulate components as pointed out here:

prd wrote:

To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

So it made me think that perhaps there may be some weight to it as you need to gesture and manipulate components. I couldn't find anything on this through google, so figured I should ask. Its the first time I've ever heard it (and I play a lot of casters) but sometimes rules elude me. I just hit 11 so trying to figure out if i need eschew materials or not:) thanks.

[Zhayne]

I'm assuming you mean staff or wand, instead of rod.

Using a staff or wand is NOT casting a spell. It is using a spell-trigger item. The rules for spellcasting do not apply to the use of spell-trigger items.

From the SRD:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

No using a meta magic rod. Sorry for the confusion.

[Jeff Merola]

You need one hand to hold the rod and the other to do everything else.

[Avadriel]

Jeff Merola wrote:

You need one hand to hold the rod and the other to do everything else.

And this is why its very challenging for a magus to use meta magic rods in combat, except most people seem to overlook this rule.

[Under A Bleeding Sun]

Alright, that's what I said but do we have any source on that, or do we all just assume that?

[KestrelZ]

In Pathfinder Society? Sadly, not that I can think of unless you use the metamagic feat "still spell" or eschew material or something.

In a home game, I let PCs that can craft magic weapons and craft rods to make maces and clubs that can double as metamagic rods (at a 50% cost increase). Since you can't craft in PFS, that doesn't help in this instance.

[Jeff Merola]

The rules for casting a spell on page 184 of core mention that it's a free action to prepare materials for a spell, and doesn't say that it must be done at the exact same time as the somatic component. Later, on page 213 only the Somatic component is mentioned as requiring a hand to perform.

There's also this FAQ that states a wizard can cast a spell while holding a staff in his off-hand, with no mention of eschew materials.

Beyond the kind of tenuous reference on page 213, it's never explicitly stated, but ruling that you need one hand for somatic and another for material causes a host of cascading issues that do not appear if you rule that only one hand is needed for both.

[KestrelZ]

Sorry, it is late/early and skipped the OP "wizard", read a later post that mentioned "Magus" and assumed the problem was no free hands at all (one holds weapon, the other a metamagic rod was the image in my mind).

To clarify - If you have one free hand, you are fine. If you have both hands occupied, or missing hands, you are going to have a bad day. Unless you have feats to go around the limitation of no free hands, then you are fine again.