Do later sources invalidate previous sources?


Pathfinder Society

Liberty's Edge 1/5

More specifically for my purposes, can I use a Sawtooth Sabre with Weapon Finesse?

In the Adventurer's Armoury, a Sawtooth Sabre can be treated as a light weapon by a proficient user - it's finesse-able. In the later Ultimate Equipment,a Sawtooth Sabre is only a light weapon for the purpose of Two-Weapon Fighting - that is, not finesse-able.

The Additional Resources page for the Adventurer's Armoury says "Everything in this book is legal for play [except some unrelated things]." RAW, I can't find anything that says I can't show up with my copy of the Adventurer's Armoury and finesse those sabres, but fair to say there's been table variation.

There's some precedent. I understand there's two different "Agile" enchantments in two different sourcebooks, both of which are separately legal if you have that sourcebook. Though I appreciate this is a little different when it's pretty obviously meant to be the same weapon with an update.

(Can I also say it's a bit annoying to buy a sourcebook, see something cool which is explicitly called out as legal, create a character using it and then find out at a table one day your build is invalidated by a later sourcebook you've never heard of. Is a player expected to buy and scour every new release on the off-chance one of their toys has been quietly altered?)

Shadow Lodge

If the additional resources say that the item is legal from the original book then the item is legal from the original book in the text that that book defines the item as. If a later book comes out with a slightly different version of the item and then both versions are legal according to the Additional resources then both items are legal though they have the same name and may act differently, and here is why: The additional resources state that the item is legal as written in the book, not with any modifications, if an item is updated in a new book and only the new version was legal then the old version would need to be removed, however something being removed can be missed in additional resource updates As made obvious by how many people question weather or not the harrowing feat is legal even though it shows up as still being illegal and was missed.

For every additional resource, you are supposed to prove that the ability or item is legal from the resource you provide, you are not responsible for resources that you provide and as long as the item is legal from the resource you provide it is the resource which the GM is supposed to reference for the item.

However, GMs that are aware of the item being reprinted in Ultimate Equipment and changed might feel that it is common sense that the change was made to clarify Rules as Intended and change the ability and may enforce the rules in Ultimate Equipment, but you are not responsible for bringing Ultimate Equipment even if they do rule this way as the additional resources say that you can utilize the Adventurer's Armory for that item.

TL;DR Expect table variation.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

The interesting thing about the listing in the AA is that is refers you to the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting. It doesn't actually describe anything about the weapon, other than what's listed in the chart.

I don't have a copy of the PCCS. Can anyone else look it up to see what it says? If it explains that a Sawtooth Sabre can only be wielded as a light weapon in the off-hand when TWFing, then it's no different than UE's version.

Silver Crusade 2/5

P. 18 of the Adventurer's Armory (second printing) says:

Quote:
Sawtooth Sabre: This is the signature weapon of the notorious Red Mantis. A proficient user can treat a sawtooth sabre as a light weapon; otherwise, treat it as a longsword.

This is in a section entitled: "Converting Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting Items", and which further explains, "This book updates several items from the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting to the Pathfinder RPG rules. Items not listed here or in the table may be used without conversion."

I don't see how any reference to the PCCS book is necessary.

Note that equipment cannot be purchased from the PCCS directly after March 2011.

Spoiler:
Additional resources wrote:

Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting

As of 3/7/11, the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting has been replaced by the Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea World Guide. Equipment, feats, and prestige classes already in play remain legal, but no further equipment may be purchased from this book, nor may a character take a feat or the first level in a prestige class from this source when gaining a new level. Any rules element which has been updated in the Inner Sea World Guide (as denoted with an asterisk below) MUST use the version in the World Guide. If the updated version of a feat has prerequisites you no longer meet, you may ignore those prerequisites.

Dark Archive 4/5

In general you should always use the latest source unless there is a specific rule grandfathering in the old version into the campaign.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Dylos wrote:


However, GMs that are aware of the item being reprinted in Ultimate Equipment and changed might feel that it is common sense that the change was made to clarify Rules as Intended and change the ability and may enforce the rules in Ultimate Equipment, but you are not responsible for bringing Ultimate Equipment even if they do rule this way as the additional resources say that you can utilize the Adventurer's Armory for that item.

I think this is the heart of it. I can see why a GM might instinctively want to do this. But, given PFS is RAW to a fault, can they do so?

Grand Lodge

As a general rule, yes. As frequently later sources correct errors in earlier ones. such as the infamous staff price goof in the APG.

4/5 ****

Well except the staffs from the APG are specifically illegal now, so that's not really a good example...

---
This has always been an issue in PFS, what do you do about the fact that Paizo updates material in newer books?

As far as I know there's a not printed rule to resolve this issue. There's mostly a consensus that we need to use the most recent printing, but it creates some awkward situations, like...

Dueling vs Dueling. There are 2 separate weapon enhancements named dueling, rather than one being a replacement of the other.

I own a pdf of Gods & Magic, but only a hard cover of the Inner Sea World Guide. I rarely bring the hardcover with me, assuming nobody else has any sources which of my characters can use their infernal healing wands?

---

Recently the Additional Resources document in PFS has actually been really good about this. When Inner Sea Gods came out, Additional Resources specifically called out a lot of material as no longer legal and to see Inner Sea Gods.

What would be awesome is if we could compile a list of differences so that Additional Resources could get cleaned up.

3/5

This kind of thing is why my Aldori duelist has a +1 agile dueling dueling Aldori long sword

Paizo Employee 3/5 5/5

The problem with using the AA conversion of the PCCS version is that you can't legally buy the PCCS version of it after 3/7/11, as per the additional resources. So you would have to purchase it from the ISWG (which replaced PCCS) or UE, both of which only give the light weapon designation when using TWF. Since the AA only refers to PCCS RAW it doesn't apply to the updated versions in the ISWG & UE.

Unless you purchased the weapon before 3/7/11, in which case the PCCS / AA version is legal.

1/5

Pirate Rob wrote:
What would be awesome is if we could compile a list of differences so that Additional Resources could get cleaned up.

Scorpion Whip. Unless I'm mistaken, there are 3 different sources (AA, UC, UE) with 2 different sets of abilities.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Global Organized Play Coordinator

Pirate Rob wrote:


What would be awesome is if we could compile a list of differences so that Additional Resources could get cleaned up.

Yes, that would be incredibly awesome.

Silver Crusade 1/5 *

Michael Brock wrote:
Pirate Rob wrote:


What would be awesome is if we could compile a list of differences so that Additional Resources could get cleaned up.

Yes, that would be incredibly awesome.

As soon as I get every PDF ever in my downloads, I'll get right on that! :p

4/5 ****

If anybody wants to help, I've started the effort here.

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