I just remembered a situation that happened in one of my games where rules vs sense of disbelief clash.
BBEG casts Incendiary Cloud, friendly rogue is caught in it. Rogue has Improved Evasion and rolls well, so no damage.
At this point in the game, this rogue has a very high Reflex save and pretty much succeeds at every round.
By RAW, he can remain inside the raging inferno and conceivably take no damage for the duration of the spell and even his little lungs remain cool and comfy (though still have poor visibility since it's still a cloud effect).
Is it just me or should the rogue at least take *some* damage if he remains inside the cloud? This goes for any continuous area spell vs Evasion.
I'm thinking of ruling that if he doesn't move outside the cloud on his turn, I'm downgrading his Improved Evasion to Evasion. And anyone with Evasion downgraded to none if they so decide to remain within the confines of the spell.
I'd just ignore the weirdness and let the rogue ignore it. He can always fail on a roll of 1. Sometimes rules and effects collide in ways that are not really intended or desired, but it is far easier to just roll with it than try to specifically account for it since changes at how things like this interact can have far reaching ripples.
Also, the rogue isn't necessarily breathing in the superheated air. A combat round is only 6 seconds and holding one's breath for, say, 30 seconds isn't exactly impossible (and while, yes, he is being rather energetic with his exertions during combat, he's also assumed to be in decent cardiovascular health given that he does this for a living).
Let it go. At higher levels, its the Fort and Will saves that truly ruin a characters day, not Reflex. Also, if you have a rogue of high enough level to have Improved Evasion, you must have a spell caster of high enough level to do things far more amazing than avoid damage from a spell.
This sort of "problem" comes up often. Best advice is let it go.
Yes, improved evasion allows you to completely avoid damage from area of effect spells, including ones with a duration. How the hell does it work? No one knows, but thats what it does. There can be absolutely no place to hide, and someone with improved evasion can just slip on through the cracks of reality to avoid the damage.
If you really want to mess him up, cast something with a Will or Fort save at him. He will probably fail those.
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At the point where you're fighting enemies with access to incendiary cloud, the PCs are flying, teleporting, hopping between different planes of reality, raising the dead, and so forth. Where exactly is the conflict between that setting and the ability to pass harmlessly through a cloud of fire?
When there are susoentiin of disbelief issues try saying this out loud.
" it bothers me that a rogue can completely avoix damage from a Magical efffect."
Try to emphasize magical extra hard. The funny thing is SKR did a blog on this recently. If evasion were (su) you would likely have less issues.
Where exactly is the conflict between that setting and the ability to pass harmlessly through a cloud of fire?
It's not going *through* that's the problem.
It's staying inside the cloud of fire round after round after round without damage that's pushing it.
The environmental damage rules for extreme heat and smoke satisfy my needs if the player so wishes to remain there.
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Where exactly is the conflict between that setting and the ability to pass harmlessly through a cloud of fire?It's not going *through* that's the problem.
It's staying inside the cloud of fire round after round after round without damage that's pushing it.
The environmental damage rules for extreme heat and smoke satisfy my needs if the player so wishes to remain there.
Okay, so sitting in a burning cloud for round after round without getting harmed is the thing that conflicts with a setting in which you can teleport to heaven and back, raise the dead, and create your own plane of reality?
Well, then you might want to take a look at those Elemental Bloodline sorcerers, because if they picked fire, they can do the same thing without even making their saves!
Where exactly is the conflict between that setting and the ability to pass harmlessly through a cloud of fire?It's not going *through* that's the problem.
It's staying inside the cloud of fire round after round after round without damage that's pushing it.
The environmental damage rules for extreme heat and smoke satisfy my needs if the player so wishes to remain there.
What you really want is to play a low level campaign. Staying inside a cloud of fire for multiple rounds is no issue to a high level character and one with improved evasion *should* come out of such an experience unharmed.
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An incendiary cloud spell creates a cloud of roiling smoke shot through with white-hot embers. The smoke obscures all sight as a fog cloud does. In addition, the white-hot embers within the cloud deal 6d6 points of fire damage to everything within the cloud on your turn each round. All targets can make Reflex saves each round to take half damage.
It is not a volume filled by white hot embers, it a volume filled by smoke shot through by white-hot embers.
Ever seen a firefighter film? They survive in that regularly, even without masks.It say nothing about the smoke temperature, what deal the damage are the embers, so it probably the smoke can be uncomfortable but not deadly.
To make another example, even been downwind from a big barbecue? It is uncomfortable, but not immediately damaging, what will damage you are the occasional spark.
Ultimately, I think my problem is not the Improved Evasion, but the wording of Incendiary Cloud.
Improved Evasion is basically a non-magical way of being really really good at getting out of the way of damaging stuff (duck and cover or whatever). It's not dimensional magic, nor elemental protection, nor a magic bubble; it's being very agile, and medium+ armor or being helpless negates it completely.
I see Incendiary Cloud as being akin to standing inside a forest fire where exposure will eventually get you, even if you are standing it that small spot that isn't ablaze (successful save).
With that picture of Incendiary Cloud in my mind, I have a hard time justifying avoiding all consequences without additional protection. The same rogue in an actual forest fire or burning building *would* take environmental damage.
An empowered Acid Fog is more efficient in this respect.
Like I said, it's my problem.
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Ultimately, I think my problem is not the Improved Evasion, but the wording of Incendiary Cloud.
Improved Evasion is basically a non-magical way of being really really good at getting out of the way of damaging stuff (duck and cover or whatever). It's not dimensional magic, nor elemental protection, nor a magic bubble; it's being very agile, and medium+ armor or being helpless negates it completely.
I see Incendiary Cloud as being akin to standing inside a forest fire where exposure will eventually get you, even if you are standing it that small spot that isn't ablaze (successful save).
With that picture of Incendiary Cloud in my mind, I have a hard time justifying avoiding all consequences without additional protection. The same rogue in an actual forest fire or burning building *would* take environmental damage.
An empowered Acid Fog is more efficient in this respect.
Like I said, it's my problem.
The key world is "eventually", and that is equivalent to "eventually he will roll a 1 and take damage and eventually he will take enough damage to die".
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I kind of understand the OP's sentiments. Evasion sometimes acts pretty weird.
I risk derailing the thread, but let me ask this question, as it's related to evasion, Reflex for half, and suspension of disbelief:
There exists a rogue with Evasion. He swallows a bead of delayed blast fireball*. The bead explodes. The rogue rolls reflex, saves, and takes no damage.
I can suspend my disbelief for teleporting, raising the dead, plane-shifting. After all, that's what the spells are meant to do. I can also suspend my disbelief for a rogue dodging a normal fireball. I can't really suspend disbelief for the above case though. I don't really know why. Am I weird or something?
*How and why he swallowed it is of no concern here. You can replace the rogue with large creatures with swallow whole, air elementals in whirlwind, and other things that envelop the exploding thing, as long as said thing has evasion. Similarly, you can replace the fireball bead with any other AoE explosion-like effect.
In all fairness, that's an extreme example. It's like someone insisting that when a character stabs himself in the head with a dagger he only takes 1d4 damage. In situations like that (or swallowing a delayed blast fireball bead) the GM can safely say "no, don't roll damage. You're just dead, you dumb fool."
Visually, you can consider the incendiary cloud to have rolling waves and vortexes of heat and flame, that the rogue must constantly duck and weave between. That much heat would create convection currents, making the area less uniform in its dangers.