You cannot upgrade specific magic items, at least in PFS:
From the FAQ:
"Can I Upgrade a Named Magic Item?
Named magic items—including specific armor and specific weapons—are not upgradeable. Non-magic specific armor and specific weapons may be upgraded normally. Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions. Wondrous items whose names include a +X value (such as bracers of armor, headband of vast intelligence, amulet of might fists, etc.) may also be upgraded following the rules for upgrading magical items on page 19 of the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play."
In a home game, it is purely up to GM discretion.
Those magic items were adhoc'd with the pricing. I would just treat them as normal magic items to keep things simple for the purpose pricing upgrades.
ok there are rules in upgrading magical weapons/armors, but my question is what about specific magic weapons/armors? imagine if i have a celestial chainmail and i wanted to make it +5 is it possible to be done? and if yes, how much will the upgrade cost? in a more bizzare cenario, how about a sun blade imagine if i wanted to make an upgrade to its enchantement to +5 intead of being a bastard sword +2, is it possible to be done? and if it is how to calculate the costs needed? and besides that how will that affect the other abilities of the sword, like when i fight evil creatures what will the enchantment be like, +7?
thx
If you cannot figure out how an item was priced, you cannot upgrade it. Is Celestial Armor the same as Chain +3 and a flat cost for the extra or is it Chain +4 effective plus flat cost? A case can be made for the latter.
At +3 equivalent the delta would be (5*5-3*3)*2,000 = 32,000
At +4 equivalent the delta would be (6*6-4*4)*2,000 = 40,000
Which is it?
The reason you need to figure out a price is so that you can figure out a difference in price. How much is Celestial +5 chain? You need to figure this first. A solid pricing formula makes it easy. Without it, you need the GM to give you a reasonable price to work from.
Same deal with a Sun Blade +5. I would rule the enhancement bonus is bumped by two vs. evil creatures. Given the cost lines up with a Bastard Sword +5 equivalent, making it +2 => +5 would make it +8 equivalent. Delta cost = (8*8 - 5*5)*2,000 = 78,000.
Normally when you upgrade an item you pay the difference in cost.
Now... A Celestial Armor is already +3, so making it +5 would be the difference in cost between +3 and +5. This would be (25k-9k=16k; half that in creating cost).
Except Celestial Armor is NOT +3 equivalent (=9K), but something else.
The same theory should be applied to the price of the Sun Blade meaning that the upgrade is going to cost (50k-8k=42k; half that in creating cost).
Except the Sun Blade is NOT +2 equivalent (=8K), but something else.
As to how to handle +5 with a bane like effect... That is up for debate. Some people feel that it shouldn't go above +5 no matter what and others say that it should be +7. I don't know if there is an official ruling to it and I wont be looking it up. Sorry.
The bane enchantment (and holy/unholy/lawful/chaotic) is one of the ways to bypass DR #/Epic which ordinarily needs +6 to bypass.
/cevah
...The PFS restriction is as much homebrew as anything else. The standard assupmtion is that you can indeed upgrade such items, just like you could any other items (outside of cursed and/or artifact items).
I will give you that it requires GM permission, just like ANY item creation does.
For specific magic armor and weapons, the price for the base item may be hard to determine, as some abilities may have been priced as plus-based properties and some as gp-based properties. Without knowing which is which, how to increase the price (using the plus-based table or flat gp addition) can't be determined. If this happens and nobody can agree on a fair price, it's best to not upgrade the item, or ask the GM for permission to pseudo-upgrade the item by swapping it for a different item with a price that can be calculated with the normal rules.
Example: Lisa's paladin has a holy avenger that she wants to upgrade with the flaming special ability. A holy avenger has a price of 120,630 gp, but when not in the hands of a paladin, it functions as a +5 holy cold iron longsword, which has a price of 100,630 gp. The 20,000 gp difference in the prices of these two possible base weapons includes the sword's spell resistance, greater dispel magic once per round, and the limitation that the extra powers don't work for non-paladins. Jessica and Lisa talk about pricing ideas for a while, but can't figure out a fair way to price the upgrade. Lisa decides to upgrade her character's armor instead.
/cevah
So... You started of by denying that it could be done, and then you quote text that explicitly state that it CAN be done with GM permission? I get that my calculations might not have been on the spot, because as you say, some of the abilities of the armor/weapon might be priced as +1s or +2s to the price, but that doesn't mean that it can't be done, as per your own quote. It just means that it isn't as simple as I made it out to be. It means that it should be a collaboration between the GM and the player, when determining price (with the GM having final say of course).
I said "If you cannot figure out how an item was priced, you cannot upgrade it." If you and the GM can agree on a formula, they you can do it. If you and the GM cannot get a formula, they you cannot.
Glad you see that it is not simple. Some people take a long time figuring that out. Best of luck with your GM.
/cevah
Well, in the case of Celestial Armor, the +3 is clearly +3. Just from the quick lookover the +6 Max Dex, -15% ACF, light armor consideration, and flight 1/day would then be your adhoc GP costs. However, it may make more sense to rule it as Mithral which would bring the GP costs down to +4 Max Dex, -5% ACF, and flight 1/day.
So you have:
+3 Chainmail - 9,150
Medium Mithral Armor - 4,000This gives us a cost of 13,150. Celestial Armor costs 22,400 so the costs of the bonuses that can't be quantified are 9,250.
I think a breakdown of 1,000 for -5% ACF, 2,000 for +4 Max Dex, and 6,250 for 1/day flight would be fair.
If you cannot figure out how an item was priced, you cannot upgrade it. Is Celestial Armor the same as Chain +3 and a flat cost for the extra or is it Chain +4 effective plus flat cost? A case can be made for the latter.
I don't think it a fair breakdown. In my case, I spoilered the mundane cost, showing that it is priced as standard chainmail and not mithral chainmail. Celestial armor is steel, and 1/day flight is 5,400. You have 22,100 worth of magic over the mundane. Chain +3 has 9,000, and with fly 1/day, leaves 7,700 unaccounted for. Chain +4 is 7,000 more than Chain +3. Elven Chain is 1,000 more than mithral chain. You get the Elven Chain's effects as well as the Celestial effects. Per another thread linked by my case post, Celestial works out to a Max Dex increase of 6, reduce ACP by 3 with a cap of 0, and reduce ASF by 15%.
The case I linked went through all three celestial items. None lined up with a flat cost or with a +# cost. However, the +# came closer. Since I also calculated the cost for the effects like 1/day flight, Elven-like modifiers, and other extras, this gets the unaccounted portion smaller, and easier to see which it should be.
/cevah
I think you're putting too much effort into being able to price "Celestial" as a +X, when it clearly won't fit into that. It seems best, to me, to just consider the non-+X part of any given specific item as an additional cost to the +X part of the item.
Luckily enough we already have rules governing this within the system. Any given piece of magic armor or weaponry can have up to +10 worth of special effects and enhancement(up to +5) bonuses on it along with any amount of +X GP costs.
Maybe. I did say it breaks down on the others. However, since I don't know, I must assume the worst, which is +#.
If I assume it is gp only, then I can add +7 other stuff. If it is +1, then I can only add +6, and the price for that first extra is higher.
If you and your GM can agree which it is, then you can modify with extra effects as you desire. If you assume the worst, the GM will have a hard time denying you your extras.
The enhancement I want is to swap out chainmail for mithral chain shirt. Effect: Mithral goodness in light armor with no ASF for my caster. I already have a +1 mithral chain shirt.
/cevah
Officially you can't modify specific items.
You most certainly can. Any flat cost effect can be added.
While not official, James Jacobs commented"Without the cost of the +3 chainmail element of celestial armor, we get a price of about 13,000 gp. The simplest solution is to just say that its effects cost about 13,000 gp and be done with it... but of course, its effects are more powerful when put on heavier armor, so you'd probably want to adjust the cost significantly if, say, this ability were to go onto a suit of full plate.
All of which is why we DIDN'T present these abilities as a generic armor quality, but only as a specific type of magic armor. It's just simpler and easier."
That being said, I'm going to ask my DM to allow Celestial Plate Armor and add on the speed bonus from Boots of Striding and Springing (2000*1.5=3000) and the Benevolent property for my Brawler fighter the next time I talk to him. DnD/Pathfinder's final arbiter is the DM.
If your DM says that Celestial Armor can be upgraded, from "This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light..." I'd just say pay the difference between +3 and +5, 25k-9k=16k.
Pathfinder does not have DMs. They have GMs. :-)
If, as I think, Celestial is a +1 bonus, then the price difference is +4 vs +6 (20k) instead. See the case I mentioned above for details for my thinking.
The boots of Springing and Striding is +10' enhancement and +5 competence in jumping. You can wear them as well as the armor, since they are different slots.
/cevah
stuffDude, throw some 3.5 in there for Mithral Twilight Celestial Plate Armor. No ASF in full plate.
Wish I could. PF sources only game. Sigh.
I also prefer the Nimbleness from Magic of Faerun to Twilight Nimbleness from Magic Item Compendium.
/cevah
Edit: wrong enchantment named
I guess when I said official I meant PFS, and that quote has already been provided up above. Yes, you can modify whatever you'd like at a homegame if the DM (it's a legacy term and I prefer it and I'll use it if I want =P) will allow it.
I thought you meant the Ultimate Campaign quote above. In PFS, you have no crafting feats available, so you cannot modify anything, let alone make it. Best you can do is buy something already defined in a book you own.
Yes, I know the Boots of Striding and Springing are their own item and that they provide two different effects, a +5 competence bonus to jumping (2.5k) and the Longstrider spell equivalent, (1*1*1000*2)*1.5 for an added dissimilar effect = 3000 which is all I wanted on a medium armor to bring me back up to 30ft movement. I prefer to leave the foot slot open for Boots of Speed, Featherstep Slippers, etc.
Fair enough. Just remember that the boost to speed affects your acrobatic skill (+4).
The reason I shy away from modifying special items (usually, we're playing a very wonky game so I don't really care for this one) is because there's usually no way to find out the exact way in which the item's abilities were added to the item as they often do not strictly follow the guidelines for item creation. Sure, if it lines up with the guidelines then by all means modify it because the developers thought it was a balanced item. But as the developers have stated before, they did not intend for special items to be modified in the case where they don't match up with the guidelines because adding normal effects onto unique item effects could cause a "some money was more equally spent that others" kind of scenario. I know that's my opinion and that's RAI by developers, but I do feel that it is valid to say in a rules forum.
If you assume the worst possible formula was used, and calculate the extra that same way, a GM will be hard pressed to say you did not pay enough.
Now, go and ignore me and enchant to your heart's content. =)
Nah. If you have a question, there are many more that have that same question, but do not speak up. I only ignore people who only know how to use [rant] mode, that also ignore clear facts. While there are some on these boards, there is usually some others with intelligent arguments and quotes. Who knows, you may teach me something I did not know because I researched an answer for a question.
/cevah
PS: Already enchanting stuff.... :-)
That effect is only granted if the boots increases your speed beyond 30 ft. If you only have 20 ft. movement and put on the boots no such bonus is granted :PYes, I know the Boots of Striding and Springing are their own item and that they provide two different effects, a +5 competence bonus to jumping (2.5k) and the Longstrider spell equivalent, (1*1*1000*2)*1.5 for an added dissimilar effect = 3000 which is all I wanted on a medium armor to bring me back up to 30ft movement. I prefer to leave the foot slot open for Boots of Speed, Featherstep Slippers, etc.Fair enough. Just remember that the boost to speed affects your acrobatic skill (+4).
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet. Creatures with a base land speed below 30 feet receive a –4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed below 30 feet. No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round.
Medium or heavy armor slows the wearer down. The number on Table: Armor and Shields is the character's speed while wearing the armor. Humans, elves, half-elves, and half-orcs have an unencumbered speed of 30 feet. They use the first column. Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings have an unencumbered speed of 20 feet. They use the second column. Remember, however, that a dwarf's land speed remains 20 feet even in medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Shields: Shields do not affect a character's speed.
Boots of Striding and Springing:
These boots increase the wearer's base land speed by 10 feet.
Encumbrance does NOT change your base speed. The Boots do. You get your +4.
/cevah
That is why the speed Olympics has to check carefully things that affect speed vs. base speed. :-)
/cevah