Wild Shape (Wild Armor) and Monk's AC Bonus

[Byrhtnoth]

Hey guys,

I have a Druid with levels of Monk, who is currently wearing a +1 Wild Tower Shield, and a +1 Wild Stone Plate.

According to the Wild Enchantment, you retain whatever armor/enhancement bonus the armor has when polymorphed, i.e Wildshaped.

Quote:

Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.

A few weeks ago, I heard from a very reputable source that when I was wildshaped, I would not get my monk bonus to AC, since I have an armor/shield bonus. This doesn't make sense to me though, since normal monks retain their bonus Monk AC when under the effects of Mage Armor, or Shield.

Quote:

Monk AC: When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

It was my understanding that I would have both my Wild Armor/Shield bonuses, as well as the Monk AC armor bonus while wildshaped, since I would not count as wearing armor while polymorphed for the effects of the Monk AC. Is this true?

[MurphysParadox]

Well, you're still 'wearing' armor, it is just magically hidden and has no effect upon you... but the intent is that a monk isn't able to move smoothly if wearing armor, but since wild shape gets rid of armor penalties then it isn't going to affect the monk... but the real reason is for balance... So it is up to your GM.

The monk penalty doesn't come from having armor or shield AC bonuses but from specifically wearing armor. A wild shaped creature is NOT wearing armor; they do not suffer penalties from any armor they were wearing in normal form and don't even need to be proficient in the armor type when they have wildshaped. Strictly speaking, you retain the Monk bonus (unless I'm unaware of any FAQs on the matter, of course).

However, I would not allow it because it is clearly against the intent of the rule, which is that the monk AC bonus is to be used in place of, not in support of, real armor.

[Rudy2]

I wouldn't allow monk AC to stack with Wild Armor, for balance reasons. The fluff I would give is this:

"Well, the fact that it's Wild Armor means that it is giving you some of the rigidity of armor even when you are in wild shape form; that rigidity prevents you from accessing the free-flowing nature of Monk AC".

However, if a character was wearing non-wild shape armor, so that the armor bonus disappeared when in wild shape form, I would allow the monk AC bonus to apply in wild shape (but not in regular form, with the armor).

[Byrhtnoth]

Thanks for your comments :) This is in a PFS setting, so any FAQs/other RAW interpretations would be greatly appreciated, although I was not able to find one either.

MurphysParadox, I agree that it may not be in accordance to the intent of the rule, however, I don't believe that it is necessarily overpowered, at least enough to warrant variation in a home game if there is a RAW interpretation. On the one hand, I get loads of armor with no armor check penalty or proficiency restrictions, On the other hand, I paid a bunch of gold for it :p

[Bandw2]

Rudy2 wrote:

I wouldn't allow monk AC to stack with Wild Armor, for balance reasons. The fluff I would give is this:

"Well, the fact that it's Wild Armor means that it is giving you some of the rigidity of armor even when you are in wild shape form; that rigidity prevents you from accessing the free-flowing nature of Monk AC".

However, if a character was wearing non-wild shape armor, so that the armor bonus disappeared when in wild shape form, I would allow the monk AC bonus to apply in wild shape (but not in regular form, with the armor).

I never actually understood how this works if it applies even when flat footed. AKA, the monk get's this AC even when he's not aware of something, it's like luck or something. I was sitting in a chair once, crafting pants (long story, but yes I was naked) when someone swung at me and missed because of my unusually high AC.

i felt, after that, it was the monk able to turn normal blows into ineffective blows as if they plinct off of armor through some technique, or absorbing a touch attack like natural armor.

so the fluff on that guy punching me, was he punched me in the face, but it didn't phase me at all.

[Rudy2]

Bandw2 wrote:

so the fluff on that guy punching me, was he punched me in the face, but it didn't phase me at all.

I like your interpretation, but the monk AC bonus also applies against touch attacks, which doesn't work with that story.

[Bandw2]

Rudy2 wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

so the fluff on that guy punching me, was he punched me in the face, but it didn't phase me at all.

I like your interpretation, but the monk AC bonus also applies against touch attacks, which doesn't work with that story.

hit with a shocking grasp? nah just redirect the electricity around vulnerable areas. fire? you can sit on coals. a deadly curse? witch, i make my own destiny.

[Rudy2]

I love it!

[James Risner]

Byrhtnoth wrote:

It was my understanding that I would have both my Wild Armor/Shield bonuses, as well as the Monk AC armor bonus while wildshaped, since I would not count as wearing armor while polymorphed for the effects of the Monk AC. Is this true?

Yes true. There is a JJ post explaining this is true and is true because the Wild armor special costs +3 and the cost is because of things like this.

[Byrhtnoth]

Haha, trying to justify game mechanics with physics never makes any sense, like with an Aqueous Orb in a Create Pit spell. :P

James, Do you know where I can find this post?

[Bob Bob Bob]

As long as we're being exact, I don't think Wild actually works for a shield. Yes I'm aware it says shields in the entry, but what it actually says is:

PRD wrote:

Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.

As shields provide a shield bonus, a +X Wild shield gives you... a +0 armor bonus. Which wouldn't stack with other armor bonuses anyway. Weirdly enough, given the wording doesn't say it has to be on the armor it's transferring the bonus from it looks like someone wearing a +1 Wild shield and +5 plate mail would get the full benefits of their +5 plate mail while wildshaped. All of this is really dumb and should be ignored, but as written...

[James Risner]

Byrhtnoth wrote:

James, Do you know where I can find this post?

No but it was a 3 second search:

JJ Saying you good as a monk wildshaped

Found via going to JJ's post and putting in Wild Monk

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

I don't think Wild actually works for a shield.

It works for shield because it opens with working with shields.

This is just like all the magical effects language says spell but we know clearly it refers to magical effects like Sp/Su/etc that interact with spells. Most things come from spells the same as most armor comes from armor bonus. We know it works with them because the section title is spells and magical effects.

[lemeres]

Bandw2 wrote:

Rudy2 wrote:

Bandw2 wrote:

so the fluff on that guy punching me, was he punched me in the face, but it didn't phase me at all.

I like your interpretation, but the monk AC bonus also applies against touch attacks, which doesn't work with that story.

hit with a shocking grasp? nah just redirect the electricity around vulnerable areas. fire? you can sit on coals. a deadly curse? witch, i make my own destiny.

I'm pretty sure there is a monk-ish paladin archetype that actually does that last one. It lets you ignore anything that says 'roll twice, take the worse result', which would be the misfortune hex and misfortune revelation for dual cursed oracles (other stuff too, but those are major character options there).

The Iroran Paladin doesn't get enough love. The only bad thing about it is that it does unarmed strikes without flurry of blows/enough bonus feats to master TWF. Still has enough room to do rather large damage with that 'light' weapon though....

[Bob Bob Bob]

James Risner wrote:

It works for shield because it opens with working with shields.

But then it says "Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen."

If you can show me anywhere in there it actually says "shield bonus", I'd agree. But it doesn't. Yes it's weird, yes it's clearly in error, but that's what's actually written.

[Rudy2]

lemeres wrote:

I'm pretty sure there is a monk-ish paladin archetype that actually does that last one. It lets you ignore anything that says 'roll twice, take the worse result', which would be the misfortune hex and misfortune revelation for dual cursed oracles (other stuff too, but those are major character options there).

The Iroran Paladin doesn't get enough love. The only bad thing about it is that it does unarmed strikes without flurry of blows/enough bonus feats to master TWF. Still has enough room to do rather large damage with that 'light' weapon though....

I only learned about this archetype the other day; it's the only archetype that isn't listed on d20pfsrd, probably for legal reasons with the name, which is probably why it's not well known. (Link for anyone reading who doesn't know what we're talking about)

It actually has a lot of potential, simply by dipping one level in Sohei, who can flurry of blows in light armor. It has even more potential if your DM allows levels between Monk and Iroran Paladin to stack to determine unarmed damage, due to the Monastic Legacy feat.

[Rudy2]

And the defensive potential on that guy is crazy good, with being able to wear light armor and get your charisma bonus to armor class on top of it. Plus divine grace, of course. He's even more unkillable than a normal Paladin.

And he's much less MAD than a monk in general; really only needs high strength and charisma.

[lemeres]

Rudy2 wrote:

I only learned about this archetype the other day; it's the only archetype that isn't listed on d20pfsrd, probably for legal reasons with the name, which is probably why it's not well known. (Link for anyone reading who doesn't know what we're talking about)

It actually has a lot of potential, simply by dipping one level in Sohei, who can flurry of blows in light armor. It has even more potential if your DM allows levels between Monk and Iroran Paladin to stack to determine unarmed damage, due to the Monastic Legacy feat.

Try "Enlightened Paladin" as your search term.

But yeah, it is fairly decent. It even retains lay on hands, for extra tankage.

Not sure how well it does MAD-wise compared to a sohei, but yes, their AC can be fairly good. With a conservative 14 CHA at the start, and then seeking out a +6 headband (hey, it adds to saves too), you can be as sturdy as a paladin in full plate without any of the trouble.

Other than the fact that it is unarmed strike-centric (which might not rub well with some people), it is a fairly interesting archetype that allows a lot of flexibility (its replacement for smite works on anything, and you even write your own code) and still keeps a lot of what people love about paladins.

[James Risner]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

... armor or a shield

If you can show me anywhere in there it actually says "shield bonus",

Doesn't need to do so. Quit trying to be so pedantic in reading the rules, that is where half the silly RAW interpretations arise.

It works on armor and shields, so you get armor bonuses and shield bonuses depending on whether it is on an armor or a shield.