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The Cartomancer, out of The Harrow Handbook has the ability to deliver touch spells via cards:
Deliver Touch Spells (Su)
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In addition, the cartomancer can deliver a touch spell with a thrown card. This uses the Deadly Dealer feat (see below), except the attack is resolved as a ranged touch attack and the card deals no damage of its own. This ability can be used with any card (not just one from the cartomancer's spell deck).
My question would be, since the rules for touch spells in combat permit the caster to cast the spell and touch the target in the same round, can/does the cartomancer cast a spell and deliver it via card in the same round?
That is an excellent question. At first, I assumed it would work like the Gravewalker Witch's spell poppet (I.E. Cast Spell and hold charge, next round make ranged touch). Upon looking at your quote and double checking in my copy of The Harrow Handbook, the wording is quite different from that.
The wording makes it sound like the Cartomancer can do exactly that, cast a touch spell and deliver it via card in one standard action. This might then allow a witch with rapid shot to deliver multiple chill touch's to the same target (or different targets) in later rounds. While not necessarily optimal, it would be kind of funny to see a Witch chucking chill touch or frostbite all over the room.
Some clarification would certainly be appreciated though.
Edit: After re-reading it some more, Deadly dealer does require throwing a card (which would be a standard action). Therefore it probably works exactly like the Gravewalker witch's spell poppet, albeit instead of being a full round action it just requires a standard.
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That is an excellent question. At first, I assumed it would work like the Gravewalker Witch's spell poppet (I.E. Cast Spell and hold charge, next round make ranged touch). Upon looking at your quote and double checking in my copy of The Harrow Handbook, the wording is quite different from that.
The wording makes it sound like the Cartomancer can do exactly that, cast a touch spell and deliver it via card in one standard action. This might then allow a witch with rapid shot to deliver multiple chill touch's to the same target (or different targets) in later rounds. While not necessarily optimal, it would be kind of funny to see a Witch chucking chill touch or frostbite all over the room.
Some clarification would certainly be appreciated though.
Edit: After re-reading it some more, Deadly dealer does require throwing a card (which would be a standard action). Therefore it probably works exactly like the Gravewalker witch's spell poppet, albeit instead of being a full round action it just requires a standard.
I can see it both ways too. RAW isn't exactly clear here.
Clarification would definitely be nice.
I think that it wouldn't be an unbalanced ability if it was 'cast spell and throw card in the same action.'
The Deliver Touch Spells ability with a standard Witch doesn't require more than one round's worth of actions to accomplish. I'd say that since Spell Deck drops most of the Familiar class feature's other features that it is balanced with vanilla Witch this way.
But your Gravewalker Witch comparison seems to be a good one too. Maybe it takes two standard actions to do this? Then again, Gravewalker Witch gets a lot of other nasty abilities where Cartomancer does not.
Cartomancer gives up a lot of utility and bonuses to get a Spell Deck.
As much as I would like it to be all part of the same casting action, I think it could go either way.
I'd rather it be two standard actions (cast & hold, throw) than a full-round action; you lose Cackle if that happens, which would be bad.
The way I read it is it is a single action, just as it would be casting a regular touch spell. You cast the spell, you get a free card throw, just as you would get a free melee touch with a touch spell.
If the throw was a seperate action, then the throw would get all normally applied damage a thrown card with the deadly dealer feat would get, but it specifically says it doesn't get that. Much like a held charge on a touch spell could be discharged on a natural or unarmed attack, after the attack does it's normal damage.
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The way I read it is it is a single action, just as it would be casting a regular touch spell. You cast the spell, you get a free card throw, just as you would get a free melee touch with a touch spell.
If the throw was a seperate action, then the throw would get all normally applied damage a thrown card with the deadly dealer feat would get, but it specifically says it doesn't get that. Much like a held charge on a touch spell could be discharged on a natural or unarmed attack, after the attack does it's normal damage.
That is an excellent point.
The notion that the card does not do damage (or get destroyed) suggests that 'something different is happening here.'
The way I read it is it is a single action, just as it would be casting a regular touch spell. You cast the spell, you get a free card throw, just as you would get a free melee touch with a touch spell.
If the throw was a seperate action, then the throw would get all normally applied damage a thrown card with the deadly dealer feat would get, but it specifically says it doesn't get that. Much like a held charge on a touch spell could be discharged on a natural or unarmed attack, after the attack does it's normal damage.
That is an excellent point.
The notion that the card does not do damage (or get destroyed) suggests that 'something different is happening here.'
Yeah, I totally agree. That it forgoes the normal damage to deliver the touch does make it sound like it could be working as a ranged-version of how melee touch spells work.
However, both are possibilities and clarification on what kind of action delivering the ranged touch via card is would settle the matter.
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The way I read it is it is a single action, just as it would be casting a regular touch spell. You cast the spell, you get a free card throw, just as you would get a free melee touch with a touch spell.
If the throw was a seperate action, then the throw would get all normally applied damage a thrown card with the deadly dealer feat would get, but it specifically says it doesn't get that. Much like a held charge on a touch spell could be discharged on a natural or unarmed attack, after the attack does it's normal damage.
That is an excellent point.
The notion that the card does not do damage (or get destroyed) suggests that 'something different is happening here.'
Yeah, I totally agree. That it forgoes the normal damage to deliver the touch does make it sound like it could be working as a ranged-version of how melee touch spells work.
However, both are possibilities and clarification on what kind of action delivering the ranged touch via card is would settle the matter.
Somehow, I don't think we will be getting clarification on this anytime soon.
I'll just bring the rules along (as usual) and see what happens.|
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Thank you all for the input. FWIW, digging a little deeper in the Harrow Handbook, I also saw that the "Card Caster" magus archetype has the following ability:
Harrowed Spellstrike (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a card caster can invest a single thrown weapon with a single touch or ranged spell as part of the spell’s normal casting time. The spell must target a single creature, and the spell’s range changes to match the thrown weapon’s range increment. This ability otherwise functions identically to spellstrike, except it can only be applied to thrown ranged weapons instead of melee attacks. This ability replaces and modifies spellstrike.
... and Spellstrike allows the magus to make a free melee attack with his weapon after casting a touch range spell.
Again, nothing conclusive, but in regards to my original question, I think it tips the scales slightly in favor of throwing the card as part of the casting action...
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Just read through the text myself as am building a Wayang Cartomancer ^_^
I think this is a point of rules as written vs rules as intended.
Rules as intended this is supposed to be used in a similar fashion to the witches familiars ability to deliver touch spells which specifically states it works the same as the witch delivering it (Free touch attack).
Unfortunately there does not appear to be clear language defining if the deliver the spell with a thrown card is allowed as the free touch attack or is a separate action.
It seems pretty clear that the rules as intended is meant to allow the use of the thrown card to deliver as the free touch attack as compared with the familiar and as others have stated the magus (for a power comparison)
Will see if there is an errata or clarification but that's how I will be ruling at my tables till such time.
dotting this as I am interested in building a Cartomancer Witch as well.
Have built a Tien "Cartomancer" who uses mah-jongg tiles instead of cards... my approach to this was it is a "free ranged touch" attack with the range of a thrown dart. Curious if there is going to be a clarification on this item.