I am playing in a homebrew campaign. The DM is applying templates so we are not up against regular bads out of the Beastiary. My character is optimized at 12th level to have a very high DC on her spells. My level 6 spells have a DC of 25. We just fought and almost TPKd to a group of 4 bad guys with +17 to all of their saves. This means my strongest spells had a 65% of their target making the save, and it gets worse with lower level spells.
For a level appropriate encounter, how much should one expect their enemies to make their saves? This is my first higher level campaign so I don't know what to expect.
The DM said these were CR10 creatures but when I look at the Beastiary, ignoring other abilities +17 on all saves would be more typical of a CR15 creature. Those would normally have at least one bad save.
My feeling is that the DM is sick of the two powerful casters in the group so just gave everyone a blanket +5 to all of their saves
Out of interest, how do you know they have +17 to all saves? Did the DM tell you?
Also, if you know that the enemies you face will have great saves there are a lot of other non-save spells to mix things up and level the playing field. Surprise your DM with Enervations from a caster who normally uses Save-or-Sucks, or use Summons or Walls to control the engagement with no saves.
Legitimately, whatever the DM says is a reasonable % to save. Should he abritrarily(sp) nerf certain players, no; but you admitted to optimizing. To challenge the you without killing the group, DM's have to change somethings sometimes.
Yeah. I agree with the above. The DM did tell us the saves after we questioned him making every save. What I'm really curious is what would a normal % look like? I am not experienced enough to know.
It is frustrating over the course of a campaign to have your character completely marginalized. I am playing a a Witch and now most fights we are mysteriously up against foes with immunity to sleep, cold, electricity and they are undead so immune to mind affecting spells and anything with a fortitude save. Enervation would be great except it heals undead.
Of the few spells which would work, like disintegrate, the foes saves are pumped up way beyond their CR.
I agree with changing up my spell list but Witches get very few spells known per level and I have been unable to buy scrolls/find another witch to trade with etc. I do have Black Tentacles which I will have to make more use of.
It sounds like you went into an arms race with the DM, and the result is overly optimized players vs hand-made DM creatures. I did that once. I was the DM. But I told the players about it beforehand that I was double-advancing monsters so they wouldn't be a pushover. They were okay with it.
If you just want to know the saves of normal monsters, see the monster creation chart and look up the right CR creature's good save and bad saves. Since you're level 12, I'd look at CR 10 through 14 for an estimate on save values.
But I think the root problems is the arms race. You've kinda cornered the DM with your optimized character, nonverbally saying, "If you run a normal game, every encounter will be crippled by my character", and thus forcing the DM to either expend lots of effort to create creative solutions to your character, or be lazy and up the numbers (arms race).
Lol, there is some truth to that, with the exception of one character, the whole party is optimized. When the GM ups the ante, the Witch with its high amount of SOS abilities, is beat down more than most other classes. Except for summon spells, my character is pretty useless as things stand now.
Are you a vanilla witch? Because if you're a gravewalker, something people CAN'T take away from you is your Bloody Troll Skeletons. ;)
With a bit of setup and a Witch you should be able to get even a 33% chance to something acceptable. Misfortune + Split Hex + Cackle is two save rolls and take the worst for two foes, regardless of if they make their save against Misfortune.
Two enemies, rerolling saves and taking the worst is a very solid way of taking one or more enemies out. I'm not the greatest at probabilities, but even with a single save at 35% of failure if you make them roll it 4 times then the chances of one failure is high (>80%, but I'm admittedly crap at stats).
Even with the Witch Spell list you have a number of options for Battlefield control instead of save-based spells. You're got Black Tentacles, which is just nasty. If you're a one-trick pony then don't be surprised if the DM changes things up. Be flexible.
CR 11 monsters should have around a 14 for their good saves. If he is giving them a slight bonus, such as the Advanced Template, it would add 2 to saves, for 16.
CR 12 creatures should have 15 for good saves. With Advanced template it would be 17.
So, the GM isn't completely out of line.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah I agree. I have tried setting up with misfortune cackle etc. even played around with trying to get quickened ill omen. Unfortunately his dice don't seem to like probability.
Within the first 4-5 sessions of the campaign I offered to get rid of slumber hex or if he did not like the save or suck mechanics of the witch I offered to switch classes. He told me it was fine. I am frustrated as I feel my character has been passive aggressively put out to pasture. I would have much preferred to be told outright at some point that he did not like my character and it was breaking the game. It would have been better for all.
I think I will chalk a lot of this up to inexperience on both mine and the GMs part.
CR 11 monsters should have around a 14 for their good saves. If he is giving them a slight bonus, such as the Advanced Template, it would add 2 to saves, for 16.
CR 12 creatures should have 15 for good saves. With Advanced template it would be 17.
So, the GM isn't completely out of line.
Cool thanks. I didn't know what template might be being applied.
It is not good if you get the feeling that the GM is cheating. But remember changing monsters is part of the GMs job.
That said i Think you should talk it over with your GM. Tell him that it feels like he is invalidating your choices and ask him to open op for finding or buying more spells.
But witches are weak vs. undead and summoning may be one of your best options.