Question re: Multiple summoned creatures when none are left in the box


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


The FAQ already says the following:

Quote:

If I encounter a Skeleton Horde and I don't have enough Ancient Skeleton henchmen cards in the box for all the players to encounter, what happens?

Resolve each encounter sequentially, including the part where you banish it at the end. This means that as long as there's one in the box for anybody to fight, there's one in the box for everybody to fight.

Resolution: On page 12 of the rulebook, under "Summoning and Adding Cards", after "...unless you're instructed otherwise," add the following sentence:
"If an effect causes multiple characters to summon and encounter cards, resolve the encounters sequentially, in any order you like, including banishing the card at the end of the encounter."

The intention I take from this, is that when multiple summons are called for, the number of creatures encountered is limited to what is still left in the box. When a card is banished, it would no longer be in the box to be summoned.

However, the definition on page 9 for "Banish" reads:

Quote:
Banish: Put it back in the box, shuffling it in with the other cards of the same type (thus losing it for good).

So, shouldn't Banish instead mean that the card is not even put in the box. As in, set aside? At least for monsters that might potentially be summoned?


In the case of multiple summonings of the same monster, you only need one card. Technically, it gets banished after each encounter, but practically speaking, there is no reason to banish it until after everyone that needs to has encountered it.


The Rot Grub wrote:

The FAQ already says the following:

Quote:

If I encounter a Skeleton Horde and I don't have enough Ancient Skeleton henchmen cards in the box for all the players to encounter, what happens?

Resolve each encounter sequentially, including the part where you banish it at the end. This means that as long as there's one in the box for anybody to fight, there's one in the box for everybody to fight.

Resolution: On page 12 of the rulebook, under "Summoning and Adding Cards", after "...unless you're instructed otherwise," add the following sentence:
"If an effect causes multiple characters to summon and encounter cards, resolve the encounters sequentially, in any order you like, including banishing the card at the end of the encounter."

The intention I take from this, is that when multiple summons are called for, the number of creatures encountered is limited to what is still left in the box. When a card is banished, it would no longer be in the box to be summoned.

However, the definition on page 9 for "Banish" reads:

Quote:
Banish: Put it back in the box, shuffling it in with the other cards of the same type (thus losing it for good).
So, shouldn't Banish instead mean that the card is not even put in the box. As in, set aside? At least for monsters that might potentially be summoned?

Hypothetically: 6 players are playing a scenario which has Zombie Minion henchmen in the locations. Someone encounters a Zombie Horde. Each of the 6 characters needs to encounter a Zombie Minion henchman, but there is only 1 in the box.

Character 1 goes first. Draws the Zombie Minion henchman from the box. Defeats the summoned Zombie Minion henchman, banishes it, and puts it back in the box.

Character 2 goes second. Draws the Zombie Minion henchman from the box. Fails to defeat the summoned Zombie Minion henchman, banishes the summoned monster, and puts it back in the box.

Character 3 goes third. Draws the Zombie Minion henchman from the box. Defeats the summoned Zombie Minion henchman, banishes it, and puts it back in the box.

Etc...

That is what the FAQ means. You do them 1 at a time, so you only need 1 card.

Now, practically speaking, it is probably easier to not keep putting it back in the box and getting it out again. Just hand it to the next player that needs to encounter it. We do this even when there is more than 1 in the box. Why bother getting 6 out when you have to do them one at a time?


Ah. I thought the intention of the rule was that the if there are two in the box, then the party encounters only two. And if there is only one, the party encounters only one.

But now I see that it is "all or nothing." Either everyone encounters it, or nobody does. In that light, all the wording does make sense, but now the intention seems off to me. So... if the party is large and the scenario calls for X creature to be henchmen, then it is possible for the encounter to have create ZERO of X creature, because the scenario calls for X creature.

The reason must be just convenience -- it's hard to run the encounter, if the card is not in the box.


The Rot Grub wrote:

Ah. I thought the intention of the rule was that the if there are two in the box, then the party encounters only two. And if there is only one, the party encounters only one.

But now I see that it is "all or nothing." Either everyone encounters it, or nobody does. In that light, all the wording does make sense, but now the intention seems off to me. So... if the party is large and the scenario calls for X creature to be henchmen, then it is possible for the encounter to have create ZERO of X creature, because the scenario calls for X creature.

The reason must be just convenience -- it's hard to run the encounter, if the card is not in the box.

Yeah. I've never had a situation where there wasn't at least 1 card in the box. I'd be surprised if anyone did, at least within the official scenarios.


You'll notice that most summonings call for a henchman card of some type, and that the exceptions to this call for any random monster. This guarantees that the summoning will always be possible, because henchman cards are never removed from the game, and there will always be monsters to draw from.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I don't believe there is any situation where you can't summon what we ask you to summon.


Vic Wertz wrote:
I don't believe there is any situation where you can't summon what we ask you to summon.

There is at least one situation when this can happen (actually, it did happen to me a couple of days ago):

Scenario The Cult Exposed with six players.
All Skinsaw Cultist where in the location decks when I revealed the Skinsaw Ritual Barrier...didn't know what to do 'til reading FAQ an then I just banished the card....

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

You appear to be correct!


I believe it can also happen with a zombie horde in (I think) foul misgivings and skeleton horde in Blackfang's dungeon.


Or generally, any of the barriers that summons a henchman, in a scenario where you've used all the available henchman for 6 players. So also Goblin Raid/Goblin Raiders.

Also I seem to recall Donkey Rats can summon a Kreeg Ogre.


OnkelZorni wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
I don't believe there is any situation where you can't summon what we ask you to summon.

There is at least one situation when this can happen (actually, it did happen to me a couple of days ago):

Scenario The Cult Exposed with six players.
All Skinsaw Cultist where in the location decks when I revealed the Skinsaw Ritual Barrier...didn't know what to do 'til reading FAQ an then I just banished the card....

You should just run around screaming "Combo Breaker"!

Or...

Something else that is confusing and bewildering to the players.

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