Terrain Improvements (Kingdom Building) question

[VanceMadrox]

Under the Terrain Improvements section of the Kingdom Building Rules from Ultimate Campaign is says

"An improvement marked with an asterisk (*) can share the same hex as other improvements."

Does this mean that improvements not marked with a * can only share with improvements marked with a * or that improvements not marked with a * cannot share the hex with any other improvements.

For example can a hex with a Mine build a Farm or Road?

I'm inclined to say yes but there seems to be some ambiguity in the wording.

[Chemlak]

This gets asked a lot. Any given hex may have any number of asterisked improvements, but only one non-asterisked improvement.

[VanceMadrox]

Thanks Chemlak, that's what I thought the intent was but couldn't find anything official on which wya it should be.

[VanceMadrox]

A follow up question.

Can you build more than one of the same asterisked improvements within a single Hex?

My instincts say no but Watchtower says "A Watchtower cannot share a hex with a Fort or another Watchtower." which implies that you might be able to.

[Chemlak]

This one's a point of contention, but the general consensus seems to be "no".

I personally think it's to stop you building a Watchtower terrain improvement in the same hex that has a settlement with a Watchtower building in it. Interestingly, the Watchtower building is not limited to one per settlement.

[VanceMadrox]

Thanks again!

[Peet]

Just saw this one.

Chemlak wrote:

This gets asked a lot. Any given hex may have any number of asterisked improvements, but only one non-asterisked improvement.

This ruling makes much more sense over the printed rules.

Would you allow a farm to occupy the same hex as a mine or quarry? Or should the farm not have an asterisk?

Peet

[Chemlak]

A farm should absolutely have an asterisk.

Yes, you can build a farm in the same hex as a quarry or mine, for exactly the same reason you can build a road in the same hex as a quarry or mine: the "lack of asterisk" is the limiting factor, and a hex may only have one improvement with "no asterisk".

Bear in mind that without the rule being this way, it becomes impossible to link a mine to a foundry and gain the benefit, because you wouldn't be able to build a road in the same hex as the mine.

[Peet]

Yeah, I get it about the roads.

The issue here I'm asking about is the idea that you could double up a mine and a farm in every hill hex. Considering the kind of bonuses they grant that seems like an exploit. A mine with foundry and farm with stockyard ends up producing 3BP worth of food and 2 income as well as +2 economy all in one hex. That seems like way OP.

[Psi51]

Try one with a resource and a river with a Fishery. Almost a one kingdom hex. It is not that op you still need pay for it.and a farm does not mean just crops grazing animals count and they can walk around the mine area.

[Peet]

Psi51 wrote:

Try one with a resource and a river with a Fishery. Almost a one kingdom hex.

Yikes! That just gets nuts!

Seriously, it makes hills the most prosperous territory to have since you can double up your land use.

Psi51 wrote:

It is not that op you still need pay for it.

Well, sure, but you are increasing your kingdom's income and resources without having to get another hex and increasing your control DC.

[Chemlak]

Well, yes, but you kind of need a nice GM to pull it all off:

Hill hex.
River.
Resource.

Those things are all GM controlled. If the GM drops that hex in an area you can claim, there's no reason not to take advantage. I suspect there won't be more than a couple in a kingdom. Fewer if random terrain is being generated.

[Peet]

Chemlak wrote:

Hill hex.

River.
Resource.

Sure, I get that. In the Kingmaker AP there are precisely 2 hexes with this combo out of several hundred hexes.

But just an ordinary hill hex is going to be more productive than any other ordinary hex. No other hex type allows you to double up on revenue improvements. There is a very compelling game balance reason that you can't do this in computer games like Civilization, which is one of the inspirations for this system.

[Mathius]

A hex like that is a good reason for a war.

[Kimco]

Chemlak wrote:

Any given hex may have any number of asterisked improvements, but only one non-asterisked improvement.

Sorry, still not wrapping my head around it.

Farm*
Can you have multiple Farms in a hex?

Improvements with a "*" can stack in a hex with all other improvements that have a "*"?

Improvements without a "*" can be the only improvement in a hex?

[Untentril]

If I recall correctly...the author of the system said that no, you couldn't have multiple farms in a single hex. The asterisk on farm got added in during editing..intended by editor, not by author, so..heh.

On the Kingdom scale, a farm isn't..well a farm.. it's enough farmland to produce an effective 2 BP, that is to say.. feed 2 whole districts of people. So..that's a lot of farming. like, 2 million chickens a year if everyone eats kfc every day.

At the same time, I've seen 2 different 'official' takes on whether farmland can be inside the same hex as a city. In reality of course, the land immediately around any medieval/renaissance city would be the most intensively farmed.

You could go either way on that imo, like "it's already counted as being the most intensively farmed, that's why your city district doesnt cost you another 10BP in consumption every turn."

And more blather...:

//So far as mine+farm(etc) on a single hex goes, I don't see that as a stretch at all. A shaft-mine entrance doesn't take up a significant proportion of a 12 mile hex.

Contrarily, a coal mine will turn the entire nearby countryside black. That's not to say that I have much knowledge of (pre)medieval mining techniques. Serious surface mining will poison water supplies, more than likely, you could use that.

The trouble with the kingdom maker rules, really, is that players will obviously build for growth..and farms etc begin their output immediately. I'd consider 'making sure' that some events push players towards making you know..'realistic' cities.

Creating events that suck up BP (not uselessly, but say..more of the "citizens demand x, y or z" building or improvement" not as a punishment.. but to moderate growth and make their settlements look like people might actually live there.

Limiting modifiers and altering others should be considered too. A "...this absolute catastrophe costs 5BP to rectify..." might make sense when your PC's control 5 hexes, but when they control 60 and several districts? not so much.

..likewise if they don't build those watchtowers and garrisons, you gotta remember the stolen lands is like..wild..a place for every criminal & malcontent in Brevoy to flee to from the law..there's a good reason nobody else had rid the place of the bad dudes..and that's cause most of them were bad dudes too.

Unprotected settlements get raided, protected settlements get raided less frequently. If a settlement hasn't been raided in a while it gets richer, if it gets richer it becomes more attractive a target.

Don't be an asshat but equally..they are trying to build a kingdom in no man's land...

[Kimco]

Thanks Untentril.

On Turn 1, first claimed hex is a hill which takes a month to prepare.

Can an improvement be made the same turn or does it also need to wait until the hex is prepared, Turn 2?

Turn 1
Edict/Improvement Phase
Step 1—Select Leadership
Step 2—Claim Hexes
- Claim First Hex (1 per turn) 1BP
Step 3—Establish and Improve Cities
- Prepare Hex, Hills (1 Month/Turn) 2BP
Step 4—Buid Terrain Improvements
-Build Farm?
Step 5-Create and Improve Settlements
Step 6-Create Armies
Step 7-Issue Edicts

Income Phase
Step 1—Make Withdrawls from the Treasury
Step 2—Make Deposits to the Treasury
Step 3—Sell Valuable Items for BP
Step 4—Collect Taxes

[Queen Moragan]

Kimco wrote:

On Turn 1, first claimed hex is a hill which takes a month to prepare.

Can an improvement be made the same turn or does it also need to wait until the hex is prepared, Turn 2

You need to wait the 1 month it takes to prepare a hill hex, only in a plains hex can you build the month it is being prepared.

Something that I just noticed, in the Kingmaker Building Rules, Terrain Improvements can only be built in hexes that have Roads. That was not carried over into Ultimate Campaign as far as I could tell, you may want to do it that way also.

Also, your step 7 - Issue Edicts, should be #2, everything in #2-#6 is an Edict, or rename it Other Edicts.