Ioun Stone Bonuses as "Sources" For INT bonuses


Rules Questions


Okay to make the subject less confusing, I will try to break this down lol. A friend and I are having an argument on the rules of Ioun Stones, and their bonuses regarding stacking (he maybe right but I want to be SURE) because if I can get away with +18 INT... then by the gods I am damn well trying lol.

Okay... now I know bonuses from the "Same source" cannot stack, but considering the following stones have different bonuses would they truly count as the "same source"?

Crimson Sphere (+2 Intelligence bonus - can stack with other Crimson Spheres up to maximum of +6)

------

Scarlet and Blue Sphere (+2 Intelligence bonus*) - max +6 with paying the gold and having the Craft Wonderous Item feat, + spell, etc via Advanced Ioun Stones**

* This stone has one skill associated with it, as a +2 headband of vast intelligence.
** http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun- stones

------

Magenta Prism (+2 to any one ability score) - max +6 via same method above

Okay so MY argument as I said, is to try to get or craft a 3 socketed Wayfinder, get these 3 stones to get a total of +18 INT bonus item to attach to my armor (going for an armored lich - Elf Ranger(1)/Wizard(x))

My current feat plan (subject to change naturally):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/brlpnt177uhdfci/VasiiraFeatPlan.txt

Obviously if my DM allows the 3.x Eidetic Spellbook (sacrifice Scribe Scroll and Familiar (or Arcane Bond PF equivalent) to prepare and cast spells without a spellbook then obviously I'll be replacing the Spell Mastery feats with something else.

and HIS argument (which maybe correct.. as I said that's why I'm asking the community ^_^) is that they're still of the same type (INT bonuses) and thus the max would still be +6, but I could gain the knowledge bonus from the scarlet and blue sphere stone but not additional INT bonus.

Okay... so rule lawyers I'm pleading to you to straighten us out, who's right who's wrong... and can I still exploit the system to get the +18 INT anyways? lol


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The type of bonus is an Enhancement bonus, Enhancement bonuses do not stack unless they specifically say so as with the Crimson Sphere Ioun Stone (and it has a much higher price point you will notice).

It also says in its description that the stacking Enhancement bonuses max out at +6.

It has been answered in the FAQ that any +2 bonus to INT (confering a +1 difference in your final modifier) grants an associated skill with the item (making up for lost skill ranks) which you treat as always have max ranks into and an associated language.

If you already have ranks in this skill or already know the language, they overlap and you are not allowed to substitute for another one unless you specifically retrain them paying the retraining fees as normal per Ultimate Campaign.


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Akaara wrote:

Okay to make the subject less confusing, I will try to break this down lol. A friend and I are having an argument on the rules of Ioun Stones, and their bonuses regarding stacking (he maybe right but I want to be SURE) because if I can get away with +18 INT... then by the gods I am damn well trying lol.

Okay... now I know bonuses from the "Same source" cannot stack, but considering the following stones have different bonuses would they truly count as the "same source"?

Crimson Sphere (+2 Intelligence bonus - can stack with other Crimson Spheres up to maximum of +6)

------

Scarlet and Blue Sphere (+2 Intelligence bonus*) - max +6 with paying the gold and having the Craft Wonderous Item feat, + spell, etc via Advanced Ioun Stones**

* This stone has one skill associated with it, as a +2 headband of vast intelligence.
** http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/ioun- stones

------

Magenta Prism (+2 to any one ability score) - max +6 via same method above

You left out a critical phrase in your summary. The various stones grant "enhancement" bonuses to each other (e.g., "This stone grants the wearer a +2 enhancement bonus to Intelligence"). Enhancement bonuses are the same type, and bonuses of the same type don't stack (with narrow exceptions).

The crimson sphere is one of those exceptions; it singles out that it stacks with other crimson spheres, up to a maximum of +6. But that doesn't mean it stacks with other enhancement bonuses, such as a scarlet and blue sphere.

So, basically, you can't do this (by rule).


Ah... okay Thank you guys so much for your clarification (makes sense I can't have god like INT at level 11-13 :P But dang was hoping I could break it lol. Anyways thank you guys, my friend can gloat now haha

(TOPIC SOLVED)


There are always Inherent Bonuses to INT which can be gained by saving up and buy a Tome, but those usually aren't available until late game.


Ah, well I'll find a way for my Lich to get godly Intelligence somewhere :) I haven't told them of this thread so *coughs*leave-suggestions-please*coughs*

:P lol


Lich Template adds +2.


Yeah so far I have in mind the Ioun Stones (guess +6 max now lol, maybe the other ones for +6 WIS and +6 CHA)... hmm

+6 to Int, Wis, and Cha (Headband of Mental Superiority)

+2 to Int, Wis, and Cha (lich)

And that's about it (I was planning to see if I can go into Demilich-dom but that's probably not goinna happen in any campaign as rarely do they ever get to epic levels)


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The headband also gives an enhancement bonus, so it won't stack with the stones. There is a book (Tome of Clear Thought) that gives an inherent bonus of up to +5, which would stack.

As your character ages, you get untyped bonuses to all your mental stats (at the expense of your physical ones) of up to +3.

So I think the following all stack

18 (starting store)
+2 (racial bonus)
+2 (lich template bonus)
+3 (age bonus)
+6 (enhancement bonus)
+5 (inherent bonus)

If you are willing to accept a mere 36 Intelligence.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Orfamy is right, the headband and Ioun stones don't stack. Getting +6 via magic items is already huge.

My question would be, where the heck do you get all the cash to buy this stuff? Sounds like a broken campaign to me. Not to mention a lich tending to be rather... er, evil and all, making him more likely as a monster/NPC than as a PC. Even if he were a Baelnorn (iirc those are neutral or good elven liches) I have a hard time seeing this as a PC.

But hey, it's your game. Having a 30+ INT score seems pretty godlike to me. The bonusses are staggering!


There are a couple of ways to boost that further.

Dark Archive

I had a thread elsewhere about maxing ability scores, if you're curious. I got Intelligence up to 46, without age or the profane bonus from a Succubus, so 51 is a possibility, with the right choices.


Dang, thought Ioun stones and headband would stack :\ I'd probably just go for the headband by itself then, and wouldn't bother aging, I'll be a lich before I get to the next age category lol. Didn't know about the Tome (specifically I know master_marshmellow above mentioned something of a tome), Hmmmmm...

As for the cash - not sure yet Wheldrake, DM is letting me play my evil elf to become a lich (We're kind of in a "Good and Evil isn't as clear as black and white" type campaign. So most of our party is neutral... or evil in some way or form regarding classic alignment system). But this is just planning phase. ^_^

DM has some custom demonic races, even though he'd probably allow a succubus lol but I want my Elf ^_^ thanks.

LordSynos, thanks for that thread! I'll definitely have to look it over for a few


How hard can this be?

ENHANCEMENT BONUSES DO NOT STACK WITH OTHER ENHANCEMENT BONUSES.

There is exactly one exception I've ever seen, anywhere in d20 or Pathfinder, which is the special ioun stones which state that they stack with each other up to a fixed cap. That's it. That is the only time any two bonuses labeled "enhancement" will stack. And the only reason that one exists is to let people, at great expense, use two or three specially-expensive ioun stones to duplicate the effect of a more-than-+2 headband. That's it. Except for that, the rule is really completely consistent, and every one of these bonuses tells you what kind of bonus it is.

Your cap is +6 without access to epic-level gear which was only ever defined by a hardcover for 3.0E (Epic Level Handbook).

And to save you the trouble, wishes and tomes that give "inherent" bonuses also don't-stack, the cap there is +5.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Orfamay Quest wrote:

The headband also gives an enhancement bonus, so it won't stack with the stones. There is a book (Tome of Clear Thought) that gives an inherent bonus of up to +5, which would stack.

As your character ages, you get untyped bonuses to all your mental stats (at the expense of your physical ones) of up to +3.

So I think the following all stack

18 (starting store)
+2 (racial bonus)
+2 (lich template bonus)
+3 (age bonus)
+6 (enhancement bonus)
+5 (inherent bonus)

If you are willing to accept a mere 36 Intelligence.

Throw some Mythic stat bumps in there and it can get a bit ugly!


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
seebs wrote:
And to save you the trouble, wishes and tomes that give "inherent" bonuses also don't-stack, the cap there is +5.

IIRC, there was even a specification in there that the 5 wishes had to be cast within minutes of each other to reach the +5 cap, or they wouldn't stack.

Anyway, anything about 18 or 20 INT is already superhuman. Beyond that it's just more math breaking the upper barriers of time and space. <g>


In an epic+mythic game, I have a wizard whose int is now 43.

The Exchange

if you have one or more level of Alchemist (Mindchemist) you can add in alchemical bonuses to INT with your Cognatogen... in fact,

Grand Cognatogen (Su): The alchemist's cognatogen now grants a +6 natural armor bonus, a +8 alchemical bonus to one mental ability score (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), a +6 alchemical bonus to a second mental ability score, and a +4 alchemical bonus to a third mental ability score. The alchemist takes a –2 penalty to his Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution as long as the cognatogen persists, and takes 2 points of ability damage to each physical ability score when the cognatogen ends. An alchemist must be at least 16th level and must have the greater cognatogen discovery or class ability before selecting this discovery.

Cognatogen gives a +4 bonus, Greater Cognatogen gives a +6 (at 10th level I think...)

It is only temporary... but the duration is 10 minutes per level...

You might also want to look at becoming a Lich thru Alchemy...

Da Brain is an Alchemist/Wizard, with only a 1 level dip to wizard.... 5th level and when he drinks his Cognatogen he has a 27 INT for 40 minutes - with only a +2 Enchancement bonus so far...


Also you get a stat bump every 4 levels...


Ah guys thanks for the responses (except Seebs's response seemed kinda rude when the question has already been answered). - I do apologize if you weren't meaning to be rude, it just came off as that way from how I read it.

@Da Brain: I appreciate the suggestion but I have no intention of going alchemist. Just pure wizard. Although I am always a confused individual I never know what I want lol

(like I was looking up the other day about Fighter with the alternate class feature Armored Mage (Complete Arcane), so I could then progress in Sorcerer from then on and be able to cast in light armor and make him a kind of gish blaster or something I'm not even 100% sure yet.

Like I said... I never know what I want lol but once again thank you guys for all your responses ^_^ <3


It probably was a little rude, it just seemed weird that after getting an explanation of why some things wouldn't stack, you apparently still thought other things would stack even though the same exact reasoning applied.

Thinking about it more, I am wondering if the confusion is from the language about "same source". The key is that that applies only to untyped bonuses.


AFAIK unless you go alchemist and/or use mythic rules and/or epic rules (homebrew) the highest attainable intelligence would be:

18
+2 racial
+6 enhancement (item)
+5 inherent (book or wish)
+5 level ups
+3 age category
---------------------------
39 Intelligence total

Now... You could theoretically have a homebrew race with a higher intelligence than +2...

If I've missed something I'd love to hear it. Remember though that I've already mentioned 4 other ways to go above what I wrote. (homebrew race, mythic, epic or alchemist)


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hot demon babes - as noted above by Justin - for a +2 or +4 infernal bonus


Joe loves Rules wrote:
hot demon babes - as noted above by Justin - for a +2 or +4 infernal bonus

DOH! Yeah... Fair enough.


I think the lich template adds another +2, which isn't quite homebrew, but still pretty campaign-dependent

Scarab Sages

Joe loves Rules wrote:
hot demon babes - as noted above by Justin - for a +2 or +4 infernal bonus

I have better uses for hot demon babes.

Yea, it is definitely profane, but what the heck.


Artanthos wrote:
Joe loves Rules wrote:
hot demon babes - as noted above by Justin - for a +2 or +4 infernal bonus

I have better uses for hot demon babes.

Yea, it is definitely profane, but what the heck.

Oh you're right. It is a profane bonus rather than an infernal one.

Dark Archive

18
+2 racial
+6 enhancement (Headband of Vast Intelligence)
+5 inherent (Tome of Clear Thought + 5 or Wish * 5 in close succession)
+5 untyped (Character Advancement - Level Ups)
+3 untyped (Age Effects - Venerable Age Category)
+2 untyped (Lich Template)
+8 alchemical (Alchemist 16 Discovery - Grand Cognatogen)
+2 untyped (Alchemist 20 Grand Discovery - Awakened Intellect)
+2 profane (Demon, Succubus - Profane Gift (Su))
---------------------------
53 Intelligence total

There also seems to be a suggestion that you can get a +4 profane bonus from some creature, which would bring you to 55, but I cannot find it on the PRD, and can't access the SRD currently. There's also the mention of epic, which goes as high as it goes, mythic, which I'm not overly familiar with, and home-brew races, at which point you can do whatever you like anyways.


LordSynos wrote:

18

+2 racial
+6 enhancement (Headband of Vast Intelligence)
+5 inherent (Tome of Clear Thought + 5 or Wish * 5 in close succession)
+5 untyped (Character Advancement - Level Ups)
+3 untyped (Age Effects - Venerable Age Category)
+2 untyped (Lich Template)
+8 alchemical (Alchemist 16 Discovery - Grand Cognatogen)
+2 untyped (Alchemist 20 Grand Discovery - Awakened Intellect)
+2 profane (Demon, Succubus - Profane Gift (Su))
---------------------------
53 Intelligence total

There also seems to be a suggestion that you can get a +4 profane bonus from some creature, which would bring you to 55, but I cannot find it on the PRD, and can't access the SRD currently. There's also the mention of epic, which goes as high as it goes, mythic, which I'm not overly familiar with, and home-brew races, at which point you can do whatever you like anyways.

So anyone but alchemists can go as high as 45 (assuming +4 profane and willingness to turn lich)...

Apparently non-alchemists and non-evil people get screwed :P (I wonder if the indication that evil people are smarter was intentional?)


Lifat wrote:
LordSynos wrote:

18

+2 racial
+6 enhancement (Headband of Vast Intelligence)
+5 inherent (Tome of Clear Thought + 5 or Wish * 5 in close succession)
+5 untyped (Character Advancement - Level Ups)
+3 untyped (Age Effects - Venerable Age Category)
+2 untyped (Lich Template)
+8 alchemical (Alchemist 16 Discovery - Grand Cognatogen)
+2 untyped (Alchemist 20 Grand Discovery - Awakened Intellect)
+2 profane (Demon, Succubus - Profane Gift (Su))
---------------------------
53 Intelligence total

There also seems to be a suggestion that you can get a +4 profane bonus from some creature, which would bring you to 55, but I cannot find it on the PRD, and can't access the SRD currently. There's also the mention of epic, which goes as high as it goes, mythic, which I'm not overly familiar with, and home-brew races, at which point you can do whatever you like anyways.

So anyone but alchemists can go as high as 45 (assuming +4 profane and willingness to turn lich)...

Apparently non-alchemists and non-evil people get screwed :P (I wonder if the indication that evil people are smarter was intentional?)

43 for the non-alchemist. And, I don't think it was intentional so much as thinking people wouldn't min-max like this :P


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MagusJanus wrote:
Lifat wrote:
LordSynos wrote:

18

+2 racial
+6 enhancement (Headband of Vast Intelligence)
+5 inherent (Tome of Clear Thought + 5 or Wish * 5 in close succession)
+5 untyped (Character Advancement - Level Ups)
+3 untyped (Age Effects - Venerable Age Category)
+2 untyped (Lich Template)
+8 alchemical (Alchemist 16 Discovery - Grand Cognatogen)
+2 untyped (Alchemist 20 Grand Discovery - Awakened Intellect)
+2 profane (Demon, Succubus - Profane Gift (Su))
---------------------------
53 Intelligence total

There also seems to be a suggestion that you can get a +4 profane bonus from some creature, which would bring you to 55, but I cannot find it on the PRD, and can't access the SRD currently. There's also the mention of epic, which goes as high as it goes, mythic, which I'm not overly familiar with, and home-brew races, at which point you can do whatever you like anyways.

So anyone but alchemists can go as high as 45 (assuming +4 profane and willingness to turn lich)...

Apparently non-alchemists and non-evil people get screwed :P (I wonder if the indication that evil people are smarter was intentional?)
43 for...

You only included +2 profane, so it is 45.

Other than that I am so going with the interpretation that Paizo is silently trying to convert us into evil people! "See? if you are evil you get smarter!" :D


Lifat wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Lifat wrote:
LordSynos wrote:

18

+2 racial
+6 enhancement (Headband of Vast Intelligence)
+5 inherent (Tome of Clear Thought + 5 or Wish * 5 in close succession)
+5 untyped (Character Advancement - Level Ups)
+3 untyped (Age Effects - Venerable Age Category)
+2 untyped (Lich Template)
+8 alchemical (Alchemist 16 Discovery - Grand Cognatogen)
+2 untyped (Alchemist 20 Grand Discovery - Awakened Intellect)
+2 profane (Demon, Succubus - Profane Gift (Su))
---------------------------
53 Intelligence total

There also seems to be a suggestion that you can get a +4 profane bonus from some creature, which would bring you to 55, but I cannot find it on the PRD, and can't access the SRD currently. There's also the mention of epic, which goes as high as it goes, mythic, which I'm not overly familiar with, and home-brew races, at which point you can do whatever you like anyways.

So anyone but alchemists can go as high as 45 (assuming +4 profane and willingness to turn lich)...

Apparently non-alchemists and non-evil people get screwed :P (I wonder if the indication that evil people are smarter
...

The alchemist get two bonuses; a +8 alchemical and a +2 untyped from a discovery. That totals to +10. 53 - 10 = 43.

Dark Archive

MagusJanus wrote:
Lifat wrote:
MagusJanus wrote:
Lifat wrote:
LordSynos wrote:

18

+2 racial
+6 enhancement (Headband of Vast Intelligence)
+5 inherent (Tome of Clear Thought + 5 or Wish * 5 in close succession)
+5 untyped (Character Advancement - Level Ups)
+3 untyped (Age Effects - Venerable Age Category)
+2 untyped (Lich Template)
+8 alchemical (Alchemist 16 Discovery - Grand Cognatogen)
+2 untyped (Alchemist 20 Grand Discovery - Awakened Intellect)
+2 profane (Demon, Succubus - Profane Gift (Su))
---------------------------
53 Intelligence total

There also seems to be a suggestion that you can get a +4 profane bonus from some creature, which would bring you to 55, but I cannot find it on the PRD, and can't access the SRD currently. There's also the mention of epic, which goes as high as it goes, mythic, which I'm not overly familiar with, and home-brew races, at which point you can do whatever you like anyways.

So anyone but alchemists can go as high as 45 (assuming +4 profane and willingness to turn lich)...

Apparently non-alchemists and non-evil people get screwed :P (I wonder if the indication that
...

Aye, but Lifat was taking account of the Lilitu, which offers a +4 profane bonus, as opposed to the Succubus' +2, increasing it back up to 45. I only included the +2 originally as I didn't have access to the SRD at work, and hence couldn't verify the Lilitu.


Liches don't qualify for Profane Gift. You have to be humanoid.


Dave Justus wrote:
Liches don't qualify for Profane Gift. You have to be humanoid.

Good catch. I wonder what would happen to the pact if it was on at the time of transformation to lich.

Tbh I don't like the idea of becoming a lich or using profane bonuses. I tend to shy away from making deals with demons/devils and I also shy away from turning undead. Even so I am the one in my immediate group that has made the most deals with demons & devils in my games... I don't know why my characters always end up in desperate situations where such deals are necessary for the greater good.


I know I'm a bit late on the reply but Wow... Thank you all SO MUCH for answering this, it really helps my build :) My future lich will be so awesome thanks to you guys <3

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