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The Prestige class, Ulfen Guard, in Inner Sea Combat requires Ulfen descent, or as defined in the flavor text of the class, typically being at least half Ulfen. Since there isn't really half ethnicities, what counts as Ulfen descent in PFS?
Obviously an Ulfen ethnicity human, but can Half-Elves or Half-Orcs qualify? Would a Half-Elf or Half-Orc be required to be one of the specific ones that lists Ulfen under their human ancestry in Bastards of Golarion? Can Aasimar, Tiefling, Undine, Sylph, Ifrit, Suli, or Oread count as having Ulfen descent, as they are typically born of two human parents? Can a non-Ulfen ethnic human (as long as they have an Ulfen parent in their background) qualify?
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
This has been raised in another thread. Ulfen is a mechanical choice, while half-Ulfen is not.
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This has been raised in another thread. Ulfen is a mechanical choice, while half-Ulfen is not.
So then are you saying that a Dwarf could be half-Ulfen, despite that Humans and dwarves cannot mate?
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Humans get to define an ethnicity. So a Human can be Ulfen.
I have always ruled that races which have a Racial Trait which states that they are treated as human may have an ethnicity. So Half-Elves (Elf Blood), Half-Orcs (Orc Blood), and some Aasimars (Scion of Humanity) can be Ulfen.
Unless a Tiefling, Undine, Sylph, Changeling, Dhampir, Ifrit, Suli, or Oread has a way of giving themselves the human subtype (and I don't think they do) then they may not have an ethnicity.
I'm pretty sure I've seen verbage which supports this interpretation, but I couldn't point to it.
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Ulfen is a mechanical choice
He said that Ulfen descent isn't a mechanical choice.
Let's read this over again.
In my opinion, you need to be Ulfen to qualify for the PrC. That means you are human with the Ulfen ethnicity on your character sheet. If you don't like that opinion, I'm sure there will be others who favor a more open interpretation. You're welcome to agree with them. If you would like the Campaign to answer, press the FAQ button on your question. Otherwise we are wasting our time trying to guess what the Developers had in mind when they wrote "Ulfen descent" as a requirement to qualify.
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By the way, if you're looking for earlier pronouncements on ethnicities, I would try searching on prereqs for Race Traits and starting languages -- those are the areas where ethnicity has had a mechanical effect before this Prestige Class existed.
In my case, I had wanted to give a Half-Elf a Human (Varisian) Trait, so that was the context I was looking in when I reached my understanding of the rules.
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In my opinion, you need to be Ulfen to qualify for the PrC. That means you are human with the Ulfen ethnicity on your character sheet.
I have a couple issues with that interpretation, 1. It requires the use of the Inner Sea World Guide in order to use the PrC for no other reason then to be Ulfen. 2. It really isn't supported by this line in the flavor text "An Ulfen Guard is required to be of at least half-Ulfen descent, with one or both parents hailing from the Lands of the Linnorm Kings." The next line after that is of course the one that you quoted in the other threat to support your ruling however.
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Dylos, the bottom line is that PC is going to be subject to table variation unless the campaign leadership makes a ruling. In the past, it either takes a 50+ post thread filled with bile and incivility OR a score of bumps on the FAQ button. Further discussion is your prerogative. I hit the FAQ button, and I'm done.
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Dylos, the bottom line is that PC is going to be subject to table variation unless the campaign leadership makes a ruling. In the past, it either takes a 50+ post thread filled with bile and incivility OR a score of bumps on the FAQ button. Further discussion is your prerogative. I hit the FAQ button, and I'm done.
Table variation is ok and its going to happen, but table variation about weather or not a character can take an option that defines the character as much as a Prestige Class is not, in my opinion, acceptable.
If I created a Half Elf, and took levels in Ulfen Guard, as it currently stands, some GMs may tell me that I don't qualify because I lack the Ulfen ethnicity, as you would, but other GMs would have no problem with the character because they fulfill the requirement of having at least one Ulfen parent who hailed from the Lands of the Linnorm Kings. Regardless of the issues between the two GMs, it is not legal to rebuild the character to be a non-Ulfen Guard and then switch back to Ulfen Guard for tables that the GM rules that a Half Elf may be of Ulfen decent, as that sort of rebuilding is not allowed after being played beyond first level.
Now, obviously the issue could be avoided by playing a ethnically Ulfen Human Ulfen Guard, as everyone would agree that an ethnically Ulfen character has Ulfen decent. But there are advantages to playing a Half Elf and certainly advantages to Half Orc (which has many rage related feats) over a pure Human.
I too have FAQ'd the original post, and it is of my opinion that the best way to get the question answered would be to continue the discussion.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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1. It requires the use of the Inner Sea World Guide in order to use the PrC for no other reason then to be Ulfen.
To address your number 1. Since the human listing in the Core Rulebook doesn't have ethnic breakdowns related to Golarion you need to own the Inner Sea World Guide to make use of them to gain any mechanical benefits in game related to ethnicity.
With the Core Rulebook human you can have a Nordic looking character. However they can't refer to themselves as Ulfen, and won't gain the benefits of being Ulfen as outlined in the ISWG. Such as starting with the Skald language for free in addition to Common.
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1. It requires the use of the Inner Sea World Guide in order to use the PrC for no other reason then to be Ulfen.To address your number 1. Since the human listing in the Core Rulebook doesn't have ethnic breakdowns related to Golarion you need to own the Inner Sea World Guide to make use of them to gain any mechanical benefits in game related to ethnicity.
With the Core Rulebook human you can have a Nordic looking character. However they can't refer to themselves as Ulfen, and won't gain the benefits of being Ulfen as outlined in the ISWG. Such as starting with the Skald language for free in addition to Common.
They can call themselves whatever they want, it just doesn't grant mechanical benefits, though I do see your point there. But even without Inner Sea World Guide, a player that has access to Bastards of Golarion could make a Half Elf or Half Orc (with the appropriate heritage) who is descended from an Ulfen parent.
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The Prestige class, Ulfen Guard, in Inner Sea Combat requires Ulfen descent, or as defined in the flavor text of the class, typically being at least half Ulfen. Since there isn't really half ethnicities, what counts as Ulfen descent in PFS?
Obviously an Ulfen ethnicity human, but can Half-Elves or Half-Orcs qualify? Would a Half-Elf or Half-Orc be required to be one of the specific ones that lists Ulfen under their human ancestry in Bastards of Golarion? Can Aasimar, Tiefling, Undine, Sylph, Ifrit, Suli, or Oread count as having Ulfen descent, as they are typically born of two human parents? Can a non-Ulfen ethnic human (as long as they have an Ulfen parent in their background) qualify?
I don't know if this helps, but there is a trait Child of Two Peoples that is open to Half-Elves, Half-Orcs and Humans that you pick the other people for your half elf or half orc and you get the ethnic language.
Also, you can be adopted by the Ulfen, and raised by them, but I doubt most GMs would accept that
Personally, I'd say that "Ulfen descent" is clearly only meant to mean what it does in the flavor text: At least half-Ulfen. Half-elves and half-orcs should be fine.
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Personally, I'd say that "Ulfen descent" is clearly only meant to mean what it does in the flavor text: At least half-Ulfen. Half-elves and half-orcs should be fine.
But Half Elf and Half orc are not the only races that have at least one human parent, Aasimar, Tiefling, Undine, Sylph, Ifrit, Suli, Oread, and a few other boon races are defined as having 2 human parents in most circumstances.
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The trait from people of the north "Child of Two People" Allows you to count as two ethnicities. Only Humans, Half Elves, and Half Orcs can take it. The two ethnicities must also be from people groups who live in proximity to each other.
So a half orc with this trait could be Ulfen and Orc. The cinderlands are very close to the Linnorn Kingdoms. There are also cities in the linnorn kingdoms with high orc/half orc populations.
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The trait from people of the north "Child of Two People" Allows you to count as two ethnicities. Only Humans, Half Elves, and Half Orcs can take it. The two ethnicities must also be from people groups who live in proximity to each other.
So a half orc with this trait could be Ulfen and Orc. The cinderlands are very close to the Linnorn Kingdoms. There are also cities in the linnorn kingdoms with high orc/half orc populations.
Actually, the trait does not give you the ethnicity, just their languages.
I would think half elf or half orc with an ukfen or land of the linnorm kings trait would be sufficient. I can't really see how it could apply to anyone else except maybe aasimar.
But really if somone showed up at avtable with a half-orc named Svend and a trait that talks about growing up in the land of the linnorm kings. It would be kind of unreasonable for a class to tell him he doesn't meet the half-ulfen clause.
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Interesting discussion. Here is how I interpret it. In the Pathfinder Player Companion for People of the North, page 14 talks about Dwarves and Gnomes, then continues with other races and ethnicities. The paragraph states "Human ethnicities make up the remainder of the northern civilizations, with two exceptions: half-elves descended from Snowcaster elves and the half-orcs of the Ironbound Archipelago and the Realm of the Mammoth Lords."
Under the Half-Elf Section "Occasionally, however, such liaisons do occur, though the half-elven progeny of such unions are almost never accepted in Snowcaster society."
So, taking the trait 'Child of Two Peoples' (half-elf, half-orc or human) allows your parents to come from two visibly different cultures that maintain distinct identities regardless of their physical proximity (such as Tians and Ulfen). For a half-elf, taking Child of Two Peoples would have your bases covered. So, they could be raised in the Ulfen culture. Thereby you could be Ulfen and Snowcaster Elf.
For that matter, you could also be Kellid, Tien, Varki or Erutaki, but Jadwiga would be hard to pull off, since its a part of the ranks of Irrisen's aristocracy. However, "The closer their relationship to Baba Yaga, the more unusual their physical characteristics." So with some clever trait selection, you might be able to work around it. Snowcaster elves live in isolated tribal communities, so its possible for the cultural blend to happen more freely amidst the various ethnicities.
Page 23 talks about Beast Wranglers, which can be taken by half-orc or human with ethnicity of 'Kellid'. Therefore, its entirely possible for half-orcs to come from a Kellid background. Since the Ironbound Archipelago is a part of the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, its possible that they could also have a Ulfen, Tien or Varki background. Perhaps even Erutaki, given the right background circumstances for the character. However, they couldn't be a part of the Jadwiga ethnicity -- indigenous to the Irrisen region and wouldn't fit in well.
Being a part of the Ulfen Guard means that you would have to be trained by Ulfen to do so. Hence the need for the ethnicity in the first place. What I would find interesting is the background story of your character. You would be the absolute best person to stand watch at night, given the low light vision and perception bonus.
Gaining respect wouldn't be as much of an issue, as long as your half-elven status remains a secret. You'd probably want to hide your ears behind long hair. As it says on page 10, "Ulfen almost always adopt their forebears' professions, laboring alongside parents, siblings and children. Ulfen traditionalists, marriage is the only legitimate way to change livelihoods, and leaving the family's occupation is otherwise tantamount to abandoning the family, redeemable only through extraordinary success".
Obviously, your biological parents didn't marry. Therefore, you would have to pass as a member of the community in order to receive such prestige training and respect. Let's just hope your pointy ears didn't get clipped by your Ulfen parent at an early age so you could blend in better...
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Is there any reason to think only humans are Ulfen? Assuming the quoted text above is accurate surely anyone who was born and raised in the Lands of the Luinnorm Kings is someone "hailing from the Lands of the Linnorm Kings".
I'd read the "hailing" clause as defining what Ulfen ethnicity means, you have one or more parents from the right region. Some number of elves, dwarves, half-elves, orcs, horses, pigeons, and linnorms satisfy that requirement.
Stepping away from the text and looking at broader issues, I think we should encourage players to develop backstories and embrace cultures in the setting, regardless of race. It's good for RP and I don't see any mechanical harm.
From a homebrewed game perspective, expanding upon what is written in the campaign source material is creative, innovating and fun. I highly recommend it.
As far as the half-elf is concerned, I think there is enough source material to allow the character as is. I hate to see a player not be able to enjoy a character they really want to play without trying to accommodate their desires. If a GM is really adamant about the issue, perhaps the approach is how can we make this work. Perhaps this particular half-elf was the subject of a reincarnate spell, who was human in previous form.
PFS characters for organized play are held to a somewhat more rigid guidelines. I understand, playing a Ulfen paladin (Sacred Shield). The question arose whether or not Torag or Erastil was a more suitable choice as a deity, based upon different source materials. I just listed both and put the discussion to rest. Simply because both deities are revered in Ulfen culture.
Sometimes its better to compromise your original idea, rather than adversely effect the friendships of the people you game with.
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"An Ulfen Guard is required to be of at least half-Ulfen descent, with one or both parents hailing from the Lands of the Linnorm Kings."
A) a half-Elf or half-Orc has a human parent… and that parent had/has an ethnicity. So as long as you have the books to back it up for PFS rules, I think that you can choose what ethnicity that human parent was and have that be as the human side of your half-blooded character.
For example, a half-elf from Varisia would have a different ethnic makeup/physical appearance than a half-elf from Minkai.
B) if it were a home game, I would take the above to mean that a dwarf, elf (probably Forlorn), or someone of another race with family in that region, perhaps bolstered by a region trait), could also take the prestige class. However, for PFS I wouldn't build that until there's some clarification from leadership/a FAQ update.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Doesn't PFS generally ignore the special requirements ?
EDIT:
I think the Ulfen thing falls under this exception
Prestige Classes
Roleplaying requirements for prestige classes (such
as par ticular ceremonies or killing a dev il) are waived
in Pathfinder Societ y. Please ma ke the follow ing
adjustments if you w ish to ta ke levels in Loremaster
or Pathfinder Chronicler. Additiona l prestige class
opt ions (a nd a ny m i nor adjust ments needed) a re found
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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PFS ignores special roleplaying requirements for prestige classes. Race is not a roleplaying option. Race is a choice with mechanical effects.
Since Ulfen is a legal human subrace option outlined in the Inner Sea World Guide. That is currently the only way to receive all the benefits of being officially Ulfen.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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PFS ignores special roleplaying requirements for prestige classes. Race is not a roleplaying option. Race is a choice with mechanical effects.
Since Ulfen is a legal human subrace option outlined in the Inner Sea World Guide. That is currently the only way to receive all the benefits of being officially Ulfen.
I can't find the term subrace in the inner sea world guide, only the term Ethnicity, and while those have the benefit of additional starting language (which seems more cultural that genetic) they seem part of the same race (to be honest I am not entirely comfortable arguing about the term race, since people tend to use use for a lot of things, and the scientific definition is not helpful ).
On Golarion, humanity is further divided into many
different, unique ethnicities. While each human ethnicity
is identical so far as rules are concerned, they have wildly
different appearances, histories, and customs. Twelve
human ethnicities are detailed on the following pages,
followed by entries on the six non-human core races
I would rather argue the term "Ulfen descent" isn't very well definited. The flavor text seems to define it like this "An Ulfen Guard is required to be of at least half-Ulfen descent, with one or both parents hailing from the Lands of the Linnorm Kings. "
One could argue, that a half elf could take this class, since "my mother was a mighty Ulfen chief" which would put it in the area of RP flavor.
The problem seems to be that Ulfen, is used as a game term and as the description of a culture.
It is unfortunately not all that clear, so yeah a FAQ should be nice regarding non-humans and how they are allowed to define their ancestry.
From a RP perspective, having an Ulfen Guard in the Society is already a bit wierd, so assuming that the character has gained their training from another source seems somewhat valid.
Draconic
At some point in your family’s history, a dragon interbred
with your bloodline, and now its ancient power f lows
through your veins.
Obviously half orcs and half elves can claim orc/elven descent, but it can get a bit tricky when it comes to aasimar (with and without the variants from blood of angels) and what descent they can claim.
I am not overly invested in the issue at had (the prestige class) but it would be nice to have a ruling in place for future corner cases.
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In my opinion, you need to be Ulfen to qualify for the PrC. That means you are human with the Ulfen ethnicity on your character sheet.I have a couple issues with that interpretation, 1. It requires the use of the Inner Sea World Guide in order to use the PrC for no other reason then to be Ulfen. 2. It really isn't supported by this line in the flavor text "An Ulfen Guard is required to be of at least half-Ulfen descent, with one or both parents hailing from the Lands of the Linnorm Kings." The next line after that is of course the one that you quoted in the other threat to support your ruling however.
Anyone then who takes the Child of Two People's trait - where one parent is hailing from the Lands of the Linnorm Kings - would qualify. So half-elves, half-orcs and humans can take the trait, and other races would have to be adopted by one of three races.
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I think people are being petty to decide that for PFS we need a more strict interpretation of the rules than what is written. PFS leadership already showed that they wished to be more inclusive of choice by allowing players to ignore RP based requirements.
My Barbarian has always been Half-Shoanti / Half-Ulfen. Until recently I have not really had a reason to fill in the backstory of his Ulfen heritage. However, the Ulfen Guard prestige class gives me some interesting tie ins for his backstory.
While it's every GMs right to interpret the rules as they see, if I had a player sit at my table with a nice backstory and a Half Ulfen Ulfen Guard I wouldn't say a damn thing other than "Cool character".
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There even is a trait for that:
Child of Two Peoples from People of the North.
I have a half ulfen/half kellid life oracle with that trait.
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Yeah, I like the combination as well. When I first came up with the idea it was basically that he was raised Shoanti and didn't really know much about his father.
However, I have fun introducing snippets character development between scenario roleplaying. So I am playing around with how he will find out that he is half-Ulfen and then sliding him in for a short tour on loan as an Ulfen Guard before coming back to Absalom to continue being a VC.