|
Hello,
I'm having a hard time putting a TWF character together. My build is a bit awkward but hoping I can make it work. Here's what I got so far.
Class - Evangelist 7 (Cleric Archetype), Fighter 4
Race – Half-Elf
Favored Class - Cleric
Alt Racial -
Ancestrial Arms - Falcata
Traits -
* Fate’s Favored
* ______
Domain -
* Growth (multiple uses of enlarge person)
Stats -
Str: 14
Dex: 14 + 2 = 16
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 10
1) Fighter 1: Bab +1, Exotic Weapon Prof: Falcata (HE), TWF (lvl 1), Power Attack (fighter)
2) Fighter 2: Bab +2 Cleave (fighter)
3) Evangelist 1: Bab +2, Lingering Performance (lvl 3), +1hp
4) Evangelist 2: Bab +3, +1 Dex, +1hp
5) Evangelist 3: Bab +4, Combat Reflexes (lvl 5), +1hp
6) Evangelist 4: Bab +5, +1hp
7) Evangelist 5: Bab +5, Weapon Focus: Falcata (lvl 7), +1hp
8) Fighter 3: Bab +6/+1, +1 Dex
9) Evangelist 6: Bab +7/+2, Improved TWF (lvl 9), +1 hp
10) Fighter 4: Bab +8/+3, Improved Critical: Falcata (fighter)
11) Evangelist 7: Bab +9/+4, Double Slice (lvl 11), +1hp
I picked the Evangelist archetype as I can start a performance on the 1st round of combat and provide my allies and myself with +2 atk/dmg with Inspire Courage. Fate's Favored trait allows my Divine Favor spell to provide +3 atk/dmg to myself. Even though I'm taking quite a few levels in Cleric I believe it should be safe in this instance. With the morale and luck bonuses I should have a +5 atk/dmg bonus.
I could also use Deadly Juggernaut spell which would provide more benefits if I'm able to kill a few enemies.
Growth domain gives me five 1-round uses of enlarge person along with being able to cast enlarge person and barkskin.
*******
Debating between the Falcata and the Sawtooth Sabre but not sure which one I should get. With Sawtooth I'm not taking the penalty for dual wielding two but Falcata is same damage but with x3 crit and I figured Imp Crit at lvl 10 was worth getting.
When enlarged and someone provokes an Attack of Opportunity do I get to swing both my main and offhand weapons as long as I'm not going over my limit on AoO's per round with Combat Reflexes?
Should I dump stats somewhere? Should I go with finesseable weapons instead like 2 rapiers? or?
When enlarged and someone provokes an Attack of Opportunity do I get to swing both my main and offhand weapons as long as I'm not going over my limit on AoO's per round with Combat Reflexes?
I didnt check your build in detail, but unless you have an ability that says otherwise, the standard answer is no. An AoO is one attack, nothing more
|
|
Ranger gives you the twf feats for free with no pre-requisites so you dont have to worry about dex and can focus on strength instead.
2 levels of Ranger would only get me TWF.
I saw that, but I didn't want to only go 4 levels of Ranger and going 6 levels cuts down my effectiveness of Inspire Courage, Divine Favor, lose out on lvl 4 divine spells, and few other spells I'll miss out on the bonus increase. :S
|
|
Wow, thanks for all the information you provided Akerlof.
So I am concerned about falling behind and I don't want to do that. I've opted for a Str Ranger build. Let me know what you think or if it's missing anything important.
Class – Ranger
Race – Half-Elf
Favored Class – Ranger
Alt Racial -
Ancestrial Arms – Sawtooth Sabre
Traits -
* Fate’s Favored
* ______
Animal Companion - badger, bird, cat (small), or wolf. (Haven't looked into which ones would be most beneficial yet...)
Stats -
Str: 16 + 2 = 18
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 10
1) Ranger 1: Bab +1, Exotic Weapon Prof: Sawtooth Sabre (HE), Power Attack (lvl 1), +1 hp
2) Ranger 2: Bab +2 TWF (ranger), +1 hp
3) Ranger 3: Bab +3, Quick Draw (lvl 3), +1hp
4) Ranger 4: Bab +4, +1 Str, +1hp
5) Ranger 5: Bab +5, Weapon Focus: Sawtooth Sabre (lvl 5), +1hp
6) Ranger 6: Bab +6/+1, ITWF (ranger), +1hp
7) Ranger 7: Bab +7/+2, Boon Companion (lvl 7), +1hp
8) Ranger 8: Bab +8/+3, +1 Str, +1 hp
9) Ranger 9: Bab +9/+4, Improved Critical: Sawtooth Sabre (lvl 9), +1 hp
10) Ranger 10: Bab +10/+5, TW Rend (ranger), +1 hp
11) Ranger 11: Bab +11/+6/+1, Double Slice (lvl 11), +1hp
I'm assuming my stats are allocated pretty decent, but if not let me know if I should make any changes/improvements. Also any good ideas for my 2nd trait?
|
Ranger gives you the twf feats for free with no pre-requisites so you dont have to worry about dex and can focus on strength instead.2 levels of Ranger would only get me TWF.
I saw that, but I didn't want to only go 4 levels of Ranger and going 6 levels cuts down my effectiveness of Inspire Courage, Divine Favor, lose out on lvl 4 divine spells, and few other spells I'll miss out on the bonus increase. :S
What's so wrong with 2 levels of Ranger? TWF is what you need, and you're getting it without the DEX requirement. Less MAD is good. This also frees up 2 more levels of cleric (your original build had 4 levels of fighter).
|
|
If you multiclass with cleric, you loose bab (comparing with a full fighter) so dual falchata is not a good option. -4 is a big penalty. I suggest you to use dual light weapons such as short swords or kukris (high crit range).
In addition, you miss a point. If you keep your Dex 16, this means when you enlarge yourself, you cannot use two-weapon fighting because your Dex score will fall to 14. The feat needs at least Dex 15 to work.
Taking ranger levels (instead of fighter) solves this problem. Instead you may change your domain and go fighter for more feats.
|
|
Class - Evangelist 9 (Cleric Archetype), Ranger 2
Race – Half-Elf
Favored Class - Cleric & Ranger
Alt Racial -
Ancestrial Arms - Sawtooth Sabre
Traits -
* Fate’s Favored
* ______
Domain -
* Growth (multiple uses of enlarge person)
Stats -
Str: 16 + 2 = 18
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 7
1) Ranger 1: Bab +1, Exotic Weapon Prof: Sawtooth Sabre (HE), Power Attack (fighter)
2) Ranger 2: Bab +2, TWF (ranger)
3) Evangelist 1: Bab +2, Lingering Performance (lvl 3), +1hp
4) Evangelist 2: Bab +3, +1 Str, +1hp
5) Evangelist 3: Bab +4, Quick Draw (lvl 5), +1hp
6) Evangelist 4: Bab +5, +1hp
7) Evangelist 5: Bab +5, Weapon Focus: Sawtooth Sabre (lvl 7), +1hp
8) Evangelist 6: Bab +6/+1, +1 Str
9) Evangelist 7: Bab +7/+2, ______ (lvl 9), +1 hp
10) Evangelist 8: Bab +8/+3, Improved Critical: Sawtooth Sabre (fighter)
11) Evangelist 9: Bab +8/+3, Double Slice (lvl 11), +1hp
Class – Ranger
Race – Half-Elf
Favored Class – Ranger
Alt Racial -
Ancestrial Arms – Sawtooth Sabre
Traits -
* Fate’s Favored
* ______
Animal Companion - badger, bird, cat (small), or wolf. (Haven't looked into which ones would be most beneficial yet...)
Stats -
Str: 16 + 2 = 18
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 13
Cha: 10
1) Ranger 1: Bab +1, Exotic Weapon Prof: Sawtooth Sabre (HE), Power Attack (lvl 1), +1 hp
2) Ranger 2: Bab +2 TWF (ranger), +1 hp
3) Ranger 3: Bab +3, Quick Draw (lvl 3), +1hp
4) Ranger 4: Bab +4, +1 Str, +1hp
5) Ranger 5: Bab +5, Weapon Focus: Sawtooth Sabre (lvl 5), +1hp
6) Ranger 6: Bab +6/+1, ITWF (ranger), +1hp
7) Ranger 7: Bab +7/+2, Boon Companion (lvl 7), +1hp
8) Ranger 8: Bab +8/+3, +1 Str, +1 hp
9) Ranger 9: Bab +9/+4, Improved Critical: Sawtooth Sabre (lvl 9), +1 hp
10) Ranger 10: Bab +10/+5, TW Rend (ranger), +1 hp
11) Ranger 11: Bab +11/+6/+1, Double Slice (lvl 11), +1hp
Which seems better? The Cleric build should have +4 atk/dmg luck bonus from Divine Power & Fate's Favored (Divine Power also gives me 1 extra attack.) My Bardic Performance will give myself and allies +2 atk/dmg morale bonus.
I also have access to Enlarge Person, Righteous Might, and other various Cleric spells. I will be able to cast up to 5th level cleric spells and various defensive spells.
On the other hand Ranger has access to a few small spells, has an animal companion at full level with Boon Companion. Has ITWF and TWRend.
Thoughts? Suggestions?
|
|
It looks like the Two-Bladed Sword is the exact same thing as a Sawtooth Sabre. When you cast a spell with a double weapon are you still threatening if an enemy provokes? Do you take penalties when attacking with an AoO since it's a 2handed weapon but you're using only 1 side since you took your hand off to cast? I'm not familiar or comfortable with double weapons presently as I've never made a character that uses them.
Is there any other specific double weapons that are worth using? I see Monk's Spade can be used as Slashing, Piercing, or Bludgeoning...also Gnome Hooked Hammer has high crit multiplers. Any others that are worth switching from 2 Sawtooth Sabres?
|
|
Other question: Is Enlarge Person and Barkskin as domain spells and useable as wands better than taking the Demon domain (+1/2 cleric level to atks/dmg for all melee rolls for 1 round) or taking the Animal Domain (Feather or Fur). If I went with the Animal domain I could squeeze Boon Companion in and my pet would only be -1 level from me.
Instead of Sawtooth Sabers, I would use a double weapon. It allows you to use a two handed damage bonus on AoOs and when you are unable to power attack, and you don't need to sheathe or drop your off-hand weapon if you are going to cast a spell.
Since grip-switching is a free action you are essentially always using your double-weapon to best effect.
I was just looking at a double-weapon cleric recently, and figured a straight Evangelist with the Glory domain was the way to go. Glory domain gets you Heroism as a bonus third level spell, cancelling out your TWF penalty right there. Eventually you can use heroism aura and your inspire courage to toss your whole party +4ab when you feel like it too.
As far as ability scores go, I would consider using either a Human with the alt-racial that lets you add +2 to two abilities, or the Aasimar that has +2dex and +2wisdom. You can use a quarterstaff until you pick up double-sword at 3.
|
|
Instead of Sawtooth Sabers, I would use a double weapon. It allows you to use a two handed damage bonus on AoOs and when you are unable to power attack, and you don't need to sheathe or drop your off-hand weapon if you are going to cast a spell.
Since grip-switching is a free action you are essentially always using your double-weapon to best effect.
I was just looking at a double-weapon cleric recently, and figured a straight Evangelist with the Glory domain was the way to go. Glory domain gets you Heroism as a bonus third level spell, cancelling out your TWF penalty right there. Eventually you can use heroism aura and your inspire courage to toss your whole party +4ab when you feel like it too.
As far as ability scores go, I would consider using either a Human with the alt-racial that lets you add +2 to two abilities, or the Aasimar that has +2dex and +2wisdom. You can use a quarterstaff until you pick up double-sword at 3.
Why pick the Glory domain when you're already an Evangelist? At 5th level you're already getting the +2 atk/dmg morale bonus and they don't stack.
I was planning on the Half Elf as dipping another class I can still get the +1hp favored class bonus and I can pickup an exotic weapon prof for free while having the Half-Elf's magical sleep immunity and +2 saves vs enchantments. Plus HE gives you low light vision and a +2 bonus to perception which is always nice.
Aasimar is a nice choice but not sure I'd go with Garuda (+2dex +2wis), the Angelkin (+2str +2wis) is nice if you're doing the 2 level Ranger dip and the immunity to Hold Person and such is nice along with the Resistances.....but Enlarge Person spell doesn't work on Aasimars though so that's something to consider.
******
Still curious about what Double weapon to use...Monk's Spade seems useful since it has S/P/B choices but Double-Sword looks like same thing as Sawtooth Sabre.. Any other good/decent choices?
Since I have TWF and I pickup Quickdraw can I throw as many Chakrams as I have melee attacks? I know some of the ranged feats for more attacks are for Bow/Arrow specifically. Wondering if I can use my TWF feat towards extra throws of Chakrams.
Also wondering whether Animal/Demon/or Growth domain better? Only able to choose one. Listed some benefits from them in my above post.
Inspire Courage is a competence bonus on attack rolls and damage, while Heroism is a morale bonus. The only part of the two that doesn't stack is saves vs. fear.
Actually as far as a complete-package divine double-weapon type goes, Wood Mystery Oracle is great. While wielding a 'mostly wood' weapon you have a strong automatic bonus to attack, and you get Barkskin as a bonus spell. Also, you can cross the Wood Armor revelation with a favored class bonus to get an hours-per-day magic armor that actually gets really good as you pick up levels.
|
|
Inspire Courage is a competence bonus on attack rolls and damage, while Heroism is a morale bonus. The only part of the two that doesn't stack is saves vs. fear.
Actually as far as a complete-package divine double-weapon type goes, Wood Mystery Oracle is great. While wielding a 'mostly wood' weapon you have a strong automatic bonus to attack, and you get Barkskin as a bonus spell. Also, you can cross the Wood Armor revelation with a favored class bonus to get an hours-per-day magic armor that actually gets really good as you pick up levels.
Idk, Battle Oracle seems decent with Weapon Mastary to pickup extra feats...but you're suggesting Wood Oracle that gives a +2 bonus to attack since I would only be 9th level Oracle by time I'm 11th level character. I'm also losing the extended list of spells that Clerics can choose from, domain powers, channel ability (if I don't tank Charisma), my bardic inspire ability (that's -2 atk/dmg to myself and entire team)... Not seeing the benefits here to be honest...
What I meant, and didn't really communicate, is that the Wood Oracle can work very well as a simple pure Oracle; it gets the +2ab to cancel out TWF penalties by level 5. True, Wood Bond is self-only and has no damage bonus, but on the other hand its a nice simple permanent buff and it increases a little faster than Inspire Courage - or a lot faster if you're pure Oracle.
If you go with the whole Wood Armor + favored class thing, you get a 6AC conjured armor by 5, an 8AC conjured armor by 8, a 10AC and 5/slashing conjured armor by 10, etc. If the GM lets you cast Magic Vestment on it (since it IS a tangible and material armor) it easily beats enhanced full-plate at higher levels without any encumbrance (or money).
Anyhow I'm definitely not telling you that you must go that route, I just thought I'd throw it out there since it's a solid option; less nice tricks, really solid core stats and full spontaneous divine casting.
|
|
Another good thing about wood oracle is you can use a simple quarterstaff and enchant it with shillelagh.
I see what you are both saying but beyond the wooden armor and the +atk to wooden weapons, there's really nothing else that's useful in Wood. Also, you're settling for a weapon with no crit range beyond a nat20 and often 1 step down in dmg roll (most are 1d6)...it also doesn't feel very flavorful as clubs, quarterstaves, and spears are pretty common/basic weapons whereas you hardly see a sawtooth sabre or double-bladed sword, etc.
It still feels like it's giving up quite a bit for little benefits. I could go Evangelist Cleric with a 2 level dip in Ranger and take the Animal domain and with Boon Companion have an AC that's -1 my level which wouldn't be too bad.... Or I could take the domain to have enlarge person or Demon domain to increase my atk/dmg for all attacks in 1round by half my Cleric level (+4). Not to mention Clerics have better saves and the Evangelist archetype gives +2 atk/dmg bonus to everyone.
I'm really set on either 9 levels of evangelist cleric and 2 levels of ranger or full ranger for a dual-wield character. Just not sure which would turn out better.
This is for PFS also, just wanted to clarify.
EDIT: Despite Rangers getting ITWF, I kind of think the 9Cleric / 2Ranger actually pulls ahead. 4th lvl spell Divine Power gives an extra attack at full BAB, so at 9th level I'd have 3 attacks with the 3rd being full BAB. Someone could run some numbers to see how good that would be compared to a Ranger's full attack but I'm figuring it would turn out better.
|
|
When enlarged and someone provokes an Attack of Opportunity do I get to swing both my main and offhand weapons as long as I'm not going over my limit on AoO's per round with Combat Reflexes?I didnt check your build in detail, but unless you have an ability that says otherwise, the standard answer is no. An AoO is one attack, nothing moreAdditionally, there is no "main-hand/off-hand" designation except in the context of two-weapon fighting which, specifically, means you are taking certain penalties in exchange for extra attacks beyond your normal BAB allowance. If you are wielding two (or more) weapons, but only take your normal BAB iteratives, you aren't two-weapon fighting; you suffer no attack penalties and all attacks get full Str to damage. Furthermore, your AoO can be delivered with any weapon you have ready and doesn't suffer penalties even if you have used TWF rules to gain extra attacks.
The exception to the rule is the TWF Fighter archetype which gets a special ability to make an AoO with both a main-hand and off-hand attack.
Only thing is that if I used TWF that round and I get an AoO then I must use the weapon 1handed and not 2handed for the 1.5x str bonus correct? I believe this is right. Also, any suggestions on the domains and whether inquisitor or cleric?