Hello,
How would my fellow GMs interpret the following?
Player Alice with 20 Intelligence (+5) and 12 levels of Wizard wants to craft a wand that casts Fireball, with the metamagic Selective Spell applied (exclude a number of targets equal to the spellcasting modifier; spell level increase +1). Alice lends the wand to wizard player Bob, who has 18 Intelligence. GM agrees, but stumbles on these questions:
1) What would be the spell level used to compute the item's cost and abilities?
- Fireball is spell level 3.
- When casting Selective Fireball, it's level 3 too (only Heighten Spell increases the effective spell level) despite being memorized in a level 4 slot.
- So... 3 or 4?
2) What would be the item's cost?
- Memorizing and casting a spell in a 4th level slot requires a minimum Intelligence score of 14 and a minimum caster level of 7.
- Alice can choose any number for the item's CL, between 7 (the minimum) and 12 (her own CL). She chooses 10, the highest CL useable by the spell (Fireball caps at 10d6).
- Wand cost is 375gp x spell level x CL, which would give 11250gp or 15000gp, depending on your answer to #1.
3) What would be the save DC (normally 10+spell level+minimum modifier to cast the spell)?
- Is it 14 (10+3+1) because the minimum score needed to cast Fireball is 13 (+1 modifier)?
- Is it 15 (10+3+2) because the minimum score needed to cast Selective Fireball is 14?
- Or is it 16 (10+4+2) because you've chosen 4 as spell level in #1?
4) What would be the number of targets excluded?
- Is it 5 because Alice crafted it?
- Is it 4 because Bob wields it?
- Is it 1 because the minimum score needed to cast Fireball is 13?
- Is it 2 because the minimum score needed to cast Selective Fireball is 14?
Thoughts? Objections? Thanks all.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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1. 4.
2. so 15000 gp
3. minor nitpick - even if you have only a 13 Int you could still cast 3rd level spells metamagicked into higher slots. A 13 Int wizard could cast a quickened empowered fireball using a 9th level spell slot. He just couldn't cast an actual 9th level spell like time stop.
So the save DC would be 14, as per normal for a wand of fireball.
4. I'm not sure there is a RAW answer here - I'd go with 1 because wands aren't supposed to care abut the stats of either the creator or user, and therefore the wand uses an Int of 13.
If this helps the min int to cast a selective fb is 13. Selective fireball is a lvl 3 spell in a 4th level slot so it only requires a 13.
So cl 10 selective fireball uses lvl 4 slot.
1) 4
2) 15000gp
3) DC14
4) 1 target. Wands do not use the crafter's or the user's stats.
Since everyone seem to concur, it seems that I was incorrect in some of my decisions. Apparently, the choice to take is the worst for each question: higher spell level for cost but lower for DC, and lowest modifier for DC and Selective Spell.
Thanks all.
It may be a better idea to make a staff with selective fireball.
That would be( 4x7x400)( you can always ad more spells later) 11200 gp it has only 10 charges but every morning you can fill in a new 4th level slot and recharge a charge.
If your GM want more than one Spell in a staff put in Vanish for (7x300) 2100 extra.
So 11200 for a staff of selective fireball and the possibillity to recharge and put more on top:)
The staff will use your stats and caster level.
You need an INT of 14 to have a 4th level spell slot.
Save DC = 10 + 3 (3rd level spell) + 2 (INT 14) = 15
Number Excluded = INT Modifier = 2.
You need an INT of 14 to have a 4th level spell slot.
Save DC = 10 + 3 (3rd level spell) + 2 (INT 14) = 15
Number Excluded = INT Modifier = 2.
You don't need a certain ability score to have a spell slot. You need a certain ability score to cast a certain spell level. In this case, despite taking up a 4th level slot, it is still only considered a 3rd level spell, and so requires an ability score of 13.
Had Heighten Spell be used, then yes a 14 Intelligence is requires, as it is treated in all ways as a 4th level spell. Other metamagic feats only treat a spell as a higher level when determining what spell slot they require, but are treated as their normal spell level in all other ways.
Except for bonus spell slots, what your ability score is has no bearing on what spell slots you have available. It is entirely possible to has an Intelligence of 8 (-1 modifier), and 9th level spell slots. You just wouldn't be able to use them.
A wizard gains bonus spells based on his Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell's level.
"Cast a spell", not "Have a spell slot of Xth level".
You need an INT of 14 to have a 4th level spell slot.
Save DC = 10 + 3 (3rd level spell) + 2 (INT 14) = 15
Number Excluded = INT Modifier = 2.You don't need a certain ability score to have a spell slot. You need a certain ability score to cast a certain spell level. In this case, despite taking up a 4th level slot, it is still only considered a 3rd level spell, and so requires an ability score of 13.
Had Heighten Spell be used, then yes a 14 Intelligence is requires, as it is treated in all ways as a 4th level spell. Other metamagic feats only treat a spell as a higher level when determining what spell slot they require, but are treated as their normal spell level in all other ways.
Except for bonus spell slots, what your ability score is has no bearing on what spell slots you have available. It is entirely possible to has an Intelligence of 8 (-1 modifier), and 9th level spell slots. You just wouldn't be able to use them.
A wizard gains bonus spells based on his Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell's level."Cast a spell", not "Have a spell slot of Xth level".
Only partially correct, you can have the slots regardless of int but you need a 14 int in this case to cast the metamagic'd spell.
FAQ - unless of course you believe that requiring the 14 int isn't a disadvantage as outlined in the FAQ.
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1) What would be the spell level used to compute the item's cost and abilities?
- Fireball is spell level 3 ... memorized in a level 4 slot.2) What would be the item's cost?
- Wand cost is 375gp x spell level x CL, which would give ... 15000gp3) What would be the save DC (normally 10+spell level+minimum modifier to cast the spell)?
- Is it 14 (10+3+1) because the minimum score needed to cast Fireball is 13 (+1 modifier)?4) What would be the number of targets excluded?
- Is it 1 because the minimum score needed to cast Fireball is 13?
The FAQ makes the dev intent clear, and it is consistent with WotC 3.5 stated intent/goals of 3.5 rules.
Basically when dealing with Metamagic, the "doesn't actually raise the level" is a disadvantage. If you are turning that into an advantage, you are not following rules or intent.
So it would cost what a 4th level spell with CL 7 costs, it would function like a spell cast at 3rd level and use the ability mod of the 3rd level spell requirements.
So if a choice is made where one is good for you and one is bad for you, choose the bad one at each step.
There seems to be confusion about spell level and slot. To simplify things ill move away from the ops example.
A. 7th lvl wizard with an 11 int can only cast lvl 1 spells. However he has. Slots for lvl 1 2 3 4.
He can cast a maximizes magic missile in his lvl 4 slot. It only needs an 11 int.
However he needs a Pearl of power 4 to regain it and made into a wand its treated as lvl 4. But dc spell pen everything treats it as a lvl 1 spell.
There seems to be confusion about spell level and slot. To simplify things ill move away from the ops example.
...
RAW ? In my opinion you are wrong.
All classes get 'Spells per day' and not 'Spell slots per day'. A caster with a low caster attribute is limited in the use of magic. By RAW ..
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
With INT 11 he is to stupid to cast level 2+ spells. That are the basics and then metamagic feats come into play. Here the first time we here the word 'spell slot'.
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal.
What is a spell slot? There is no definition in RAW but the metamagic feat descriptions refers to '..higher than normal'. So normal spells cost spell slots. So spell slots are the same as the class ability 'spells per day'. 'Spells per day' are only useable if you have a caster attribute 10 + spell level.
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot.
Replace the bolded part with 'a higher spell per day slot' and the intent is clear.
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@ Eridan
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
Except no where does it say I need a 14 int to use a lvl 4 spell slot. I can memorize a lvl 1 spell with metamagic feat and it is a lvl 1 spell.
I think the disadvantage here is needing a higher stat to use a metamagic'd spell, which actually makes sense thematically. The fact that a crafted item benefits is a happy side effect. The disadvantage would probably go to the actual caster first, before items he crafts (and giving him an advantage because of it).
Except no where does it say I need a 14 int to use a lvl 4 spell slot. I can memorize a lvl 1 spell with metamagic feat and it is a lvl 1 spell.
But it counts as 4th level for metamagic rods (so it wouldn't work with lesser rods). Why not fit casting stat? Makes sense that it would be harder than a regular L1 spell.
I am extremely certain you can put metamagic'd spells into higher level spell slots, even if you don't have the requisite ability score for that slot.
A sorcerer could cast maximized Fireball, for example, provided they had at least 13 Charisma.
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Except no where does it say I need a 14 int to use a lvl 4 spell slot. I can memorize a lvl 1 spell with metamagic feat and it is a lvl 1 spell.
You still haven't addressed this.
FAQ - unless of course you believe that requiring the 14 int isn't a disadvantage as outlined in the FAQ.
You are free, like many others, to not like that particular FAQ ruling, but it still is the RAW rule.
I have a few questions about a modified scenario:
If the player wants to craft an item that makes use of a higher spellcasting ability score, he should make use of the Heighten Spell feat, right?
However, the higher-level spell goes quickly out of the wands range (especially if we still apply Selective Spell on top of Heighten).
We could envision a Staff with the spell, but there's another player (say, Xander) who suggests that his non-spellcasting character could make use of a wondrous item able to cast the spell.
Is it in the realm of the rules that a hand-held item (say, a miniature cannon) could cast a Heightened Selective Fireball?
With Heighten+3, this makes it a 6th level spell, requiring Int 16, thus having DC 19 and avoiding 3 creatures.
If the crafter isn't able to actually cast 6th or 7th level spells, they can ignore the prerequisite for a +5 to the craft DC.
The market price for an item replicating such a spell once per day upon speaking a command word as a standard action would be:
spell level x caster level x 1800 / (5/1)
7 x 13 x 360 = 32760 gp
However, instead of using Heighten and Fireball, they could also craft a cannon of Selective Delayed Blast Fireball:
8 x 15 x 360 = 43200 gp (DC 19 as well, avoids 3 creatures)
And, now that I've written this, another question pops up: is the fireball "delay" set by the crafter or the wielder?
And also... the creatures excluded from the spell effect by use of the Selective Spell feat, are they decided by the crafter or the wielder?
You are free, like many others, to not like that particular FAQ ruling, but it still is the RAW rule.
FAQ - unless of course you believe that requiring the 14 int isn't a disadvantage as outlined in the FAQ.
I would not say that requirement of 13 STR is disadvantage of Power Attack.
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I have a few questions about a modified scenario:
If the player wants to craft an item that makes use of a higher spellcasting ability score, he should make use of the Heighten Spell feat, right?
However, the higher-level spell goes quickly out of the wands range (especially if we still apply Selective Spell on top of Heighten).
We could envision a Staff with the spell, but there's another player (say, Xander) who suggests that his non-spellcasting character could make use of a wondrous item able to cast the spell.
Is it in the realm of the rules that a hand-held item (say, a miniature cannon) could cast a Heightened Selective Fireball?
With Heighten+3, this makes it a 6th level spell, requiring Int 16, thus having DC 19 and avoiding 3 creatures.
If the crafter isn't able to actually cast 6th or 7th level spells, they can ignore the prerequisite for a +5 to the craft DC.
The market price for an item replicating such a spell once per day upon speaking a command word as a standard action would be:spell level x caster level x 1800 / (5/1)
7 x 13 x 360 = 32760 gp
However, instead of using Heighten and Fireball, they could also craft a cannon of Selective Delayed Blast Fireball:
8 x 15 x 360 = 43200 gp (DC 19 as well, avoids 3 creatures)
And, now that I've written this, another question pops up: is the fireball "delay" set by the crafter or the wielder?
And also... the creatures excluded from the spell effect by use of the Selective Spell feat, are they decided by the crafter or the wielder?
In theory, with the GM approval, you can craft almost anything with Craft wondrous item.
I think that allowing Craft wondrous item to double up as craft wand but better and Brew potions but better (you could make elixirs that have no limit to the maximum spell level and that can be personal spells to boot) is a very bad idea. It devaluate the other two feats and make what is the already best crafting feat even more powerful.
Only partially correct, you can have the slots regardless of int but you need a 14 int in this case to cast the metamagic'd spell.FAQ - unless of course you believe that requiring the 14 int isn't a disadvantage as outlined in the FAQ.
Well, in this case it is at least a partial advantage, since with an INT 14 requirement you will be able to exclude up to two targets from the fireball area.
I am extremely certain you can put metamagic'd spells into higher level spell slots, even if you don't have the requisite ability score for that slot.
A sorcerer could cast maximized Fireball, for example, provided they had at least 13 Charisma.
Certain as you may be, there us no reasonable way to reach this conclusion. A sorcerer 8, with 13 CHA could cast a fireball from her 4th level slot, but not one modified with metamagic.
I would not say that requirement of 13 STR is disadvantage of Power Attack.
You are free, like many others, to not like that particular FAQ ruling, but it still is the RAW rule.
FAQ - unless of course you believe that requiring the 14 int isn't a disadvantage as outlined in the FAQ.
I'm not clear what relevance this is supposed to have on the current discussion. Power attack is not a metamagic feat, so has no bearing on rules related to them.
Well, in this case it is at least a partial advantage, since with an INT 14 requirement you will be able to exclude up to two targets from the fireball area.
Only partially correct, you can have the slots regardless of int but you need a 14 int in this case to cast the metamagic'd spell.FAQ - unless of course you believe that requiring the 14 int isn't a disadvantage as outlined in the FAQ.
Given you'd have to have the 14 int to cast the selective fireball in the first place you aren't really gaining anything here that you wouldn't already have. So your not actually gaining an advantage in this case.
The only point that comes out that might make this not the RAI is that it does weird things with crafted spell in a can type items with metamagic applied. Normally such items would be the minimum int to cast the spell and thus the DC would be based on that. With a higher int requirement then this of necessity would also mean higher DC (fireball DC 15 instead of 14 because of the min int needed to even create it).
Given you'd have to have the 14 int to cast the selective fireball in the first place...
Still no RAW support for this anywhere in the game.
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+1 to no increase to required ability score with metamagic.
The FAQ should probably be re-written to exclude advantages from treating a metamagic spell as a lower level, but it's a very thin rhetorical line between preventing advantages and enforcing disadvantages.
Also, very small note, Staves have minimum caster level of 8th (example above had 7th).
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Also, very small note, Staves have minimum caster level of 8th (example above had 7th).
. Hmm good catch the Price Will be 12800 then not 11200.
Given you'd have to have the 14 int to cast the selective fireball in the first place...Still no RAW support for this anywhere in the game.
And again, only if you want to ignore the FAQ.
FAQ =/= RAW. FAQ = RAI. Errata = RAW.
FAQ =/= RAW. FAQ = RAI. Errata = RAW.
You can choose to follow intent or you can go by the words in the book. Most people go by intent, and the FAQ tells you the intent of RAW. All you can do now is try to convince your GM because that FAQ will not allow metamagic'd fireball to be cast if the cha score is 13 unless the rewrite it.
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FAQ =/= RAW. FAQ = RAI. Errata = RAW.
You are posting in the rules forum. The rules forum accepts FAQ as official written rules. It's fine if you don't, you can play however you like. Pretending like the rules are not established in this case is disingenuous at best and willful misdirection in most cases.