I was recently running Silent Tide.
This is the one with the zombie attack on town, and part of this involves the Pathfinder Society's first run-in with Grandmaster Torch.
In this case, Torch is in the siphons (sewers), has 2 NPCs cleaning him, and 2 guards watching over him. The PCs are admonished -- "make Pathfinder Society look good" and "watch out for Torch, he is very dangerous. Don't draw weapons, don't threaten."
The module assumes he's so high level (11? I think) that nobody would *dare* to threaten him, so he has no stat block or anything. Same for the guards.
OK? Here's my game night. The players were over-the-top hostile to him, and may have been frustrated by some "pixel b$*#!ing" -- they were not asking anything even close to the triggers needed to get him to comply, and after just a minute of that, they were frustrated by the lack of results. So a player announces that he steps up to Torch, draws his weapon as he moves, and shouts, "The burns you have now will seem trivial to you when I am done flaying you alive. You will give us what we want right now, or you and your guards are dead."
I was so stupefied that I literally just sat there with my jaw agape for a moment, and then turned to the gentleman running PFS at the game store, and said, "I think they just broke the module. What do I do?"
I explained the PC's threat to Torch, and how I felt that there was *nothing* left to do but roll for initiative, based upon how dangerous Torch is portrayed. I think if the organizer had disagreed with me, I would have fought to play out the TPK, but the organizer said, "Wow, that was stupid of them, I guess they die now, good luck."
Because of that, I was again slack-jawed and sorta like a deer in headlights. I didn't expect that. I came back to the table with the players and stuttered, "I uh... the Torch laughs and says, 'I like your spirit, maybe there is something you can do for me.' Yeah."
From there I led them into the chests puzzles for Torch.
At the time I feel like I salvaged it, and I felt like it was the right thing to do since I had portrayed Torch as uncooperative and frazzled the players.
Looking back, I realized that I'm just really scared of TPK'ing everyone and having all the players hate me. But... in that situation, in hindsight it looks to me like Torch should have flipped out and murderified all of them.
What do you all think of this? What's the right thing to do when the players deliberately reject in-game advice and purposefully provoke someone far above their level?
Also, if you had run the fight, what would you do? Torch & guards were statless. It seems like winging it would be a recipe for players to complain that you used DM fiat to kill them.
tl;dr: players were gunning for a TPK, organizer said to give them a TPK, I killed no one.
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I don't play in Society. But in general, you did the right thing. The top two reasons that come leaping and screaming from my head are as follows:
1. Playing Torch as so confident that a threat against him of this magnitude simply causes him to decide you might be fun to have around/be able to handle a job for him, is a good narrative device that makes him a bigger bad ass. In short, confidence is sexy.
2. You don't exist to punish the players for not going along on the rails of a module they can't predict. They don't know how this is "supposed" to go. They're just doing the best they can with what they are presented. It IS your job to keep things entertaining, running along, and when necessary, to think on your toes to accomplish this.
PC death will come when it does. No need to force it.
Good job!
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Your organizer was wrong and you handled the situation perfectly.
As a GM, your jobs are to tell a good story and help the players have fun. They don't know what the mod wants them to do and the idea of killing them for taking a leap of faith is toxic. The response you gave Torch was spot on. It validated the player's actions and served to get the plot back on track.
Pat yourself on the back. That's something that I've seen very veteran GMs consistently have a hard time with.
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I think your original instincts were close to correct. As it is, you've trained the players that they can get away with anything.
What I'd have done is given the player one last chance. "Are you sure that you're drawing your sword on somebody that you were told is very dangerous and is far more important to the society than you ate?".
If the player said yes, then its initiative time.
Not necessarily a TPK though. Its up to the other players where they stand. I'd very obviously have the guards NOT attack them until they were attacked. And while I'd have the guards strike to kill I'd not have them kill unconscious or surrendered opponents.
As for stats, in this particular case I'd use the stats from
Global Organized Play Coordinator
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Agreed with the posts above. Outright TPKs are no fun for anyone. Torch is powerful enough that he and his bodyguards would wipe them in a few rounds with no real problems. So, you did fine trying to salvage a game that it sounds like the PCs were intentionally trying to wreck.
Another drastic option as a last resort, is if the PCs refuse to come back to the story and continually snub their nose or threaten VCs, important NPCs, etc... is to have that person just tell them he doesn't think they are the right fit for the mission, and give them a Chronicle with 0s in the XP, pp, and GP boxes.
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Agreed with the posts above. Outright TPKs are no fun for anyone. Torch is powerful enough that he and his bodyguards would wipe them in a few rounds with no real problems. So, you did fine trying to salvage a game that it sounds like the PCs were intentionally trying to wreck.
Another drastic option as a last resort, is if the PCs refuse to come back to the story and continually snub their nose or threaten VCs, important NPCs, etc... is to have that person just tell them he doesn't think they are the right fit for the mission, and give them a Chronicle with 0s in the XP, pp, and GP boxes.
To add to Mike's drastic option, if they're already halfway through, a chronicle sheet with 1 XP, extremely low gold, and 0 PP is, I think, even worse to receive than the dreaded triple 0!
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Global Organized Play Coordinator
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To add to Mike's drastic option, if they're already halfway through, a chronicle sheet with 1 XP, extremely low gold, and 0 PP is, I think, even worse to receive than the dreaded triple 0!Agreed with the posts above. Outright TPKs are no fun for anyone. Torch is powerful enough that he and his bodyguards would wipe them in a few rounds with no real problems. So, you did fine trying to salvage a game that it sounds like the PCs were intentionally trying to wreck.
Another drastic option as a last resort, is if the PCs refuse to come back to the story and continually snub their nose or threaten VCs, important NPCs, etc... is to have that person just tell them he doesn't think they are the right fit for the mission, and give them a Chronicle with 0s in the XP, pp, and GP boxes.
Either is a bad option because you only get one chance to play each scenario. But, sometimes it is warranted when the players just don't leave any other option.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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How about "TPK" them with non-lethal damage? As mentioned, Torch and Co. are powerful enough to put on quite the show with a group of 1-5s. Taking the -4 to hit so as to do non-lethal damage would likely not impact their ability to win the fight in the least.
Then, when the PCs are all down, pause a little bit, smile cryptically, and say, "Well, that was a bit of unexpected fun. Now that I have you all unconscious and tied up, let's see what you're all carrying around that makes you think you're so tough." This, of course, is Torch talking. He can take a few things to hold hostage for their good behavior, and will of course return the items to them after they have completed whatever task he wants them to perform and have proven that they can be polite.
Of course, this is relevant with Torch. In other scenarios this can be more difficult. But in a city like Absalom (biggest city in the world) do you really think the constabulary would be less than capable of handling powerful characters, themselves? And their goal would be to capture, not kill, so they can be brought up on charges. This same concept extends to a lot of metropolitan cities.
Recalcitrant players can really do the most damage out in the sticks, where there is no government or other system to fall back on. Handling it the way you did (smiling and saying, "You amuse me. Because of that I'll give you what you want,") is perfectly acceptable. In your example, I wouldn't have even run the trapped chests and would have just moved on with the story. Only thing I may have added is something along the lines of, "In this world, if I still have these burns, how powerful do you think the effect would have had to be? Considering that, how powerful do you think *I* would have to be to survive it? Think on that the next time you want to start trying to measure up to your betters."
Thank you all very much. I still feel badly, upon reflection, for letting them get away with insanely hostile behavior. I think it reinforced the idea that the PFS is so "on rails" that they can engage in ridiculously bad behavior and it doesn't matter. So I still wish I had not been as nice, even though some of you cheered my decision. (However, I do thank you for that positive feedback, as it does help to balance my thoughts. Clearly I veered from "too nice" to "too mean.")
I guess in the end, I think the compromise "best path ahead" that I should have considered (if only I had known!) would be to:
- Call for wisdom checks from everyone observing the incident, and hint that it's going to end badly for anyone involved.
- Call for a break while I get NPC stat blocks from the NPC Codex.
- Call for initiative, hit the offending PC very fast & very hard. Have the guards shouting for everyone else to "stand down." Maybe the guards had a readied action if someone drew weapons, giving them a surprise round to hit hard and not involve the other PCs (even though readied actions maybe cannot be done before combat, technically, not 100% sure).
- With the antagonistic PC knocked out, assess the situation. Are the other PCs fighting too? Are they standing down?
- Either knock them all out if they're resisting, or leave the 1 offending PC down and parley with the rest, but the bottom line is no chests/puzzles at this point. That option is closed. They're giving up the 6,000 gp to pay Torch, or failing the mission. In fact, slightly more than 6,000 because Torch would have to revive them, and he's making them pay for a spell to do it.
I guess nowhere in there do I need to TPK the group, though I suppose a single death could occur on an accidental critical hit. I could do all nonlethal if I thought that Torch & the guards would survive that (the -4 could make it difficult to land blows, but I'm not sure). I continue to feel like the best path is "You behaved badly, so that has some pretty natural fallout." It doesn't have to be a TPK, though. It could be just that their options are poor/limited now.
I think that's close to how I'm going to think if something like this comes up again. I'll take a 10-minute break, find a way to allow for natural fallout, but try to be non-lethal about it. I hope that seems fair. Thanks everyone!
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Just remember that non-leathal can still outright kill when you are many levels higher. Played my level 5 monk/barbarian in a 5-6 tier scenario crit an NPC with an flurry(non-lethal) last night and did enough damage to take him to neg con lethally. Basically put my fist through the guy's skull...
This is a rule I find is often misunderstood. Not saying this is what happened in your case, but it comes up a lot.
Damage from a non-lethal attack only becomes lethal when the total non-lethal damage exceeds the max hitpoints of a character. It doesn't matter how much lethal damage the character has taken. So, to outright kill an otherwise uninjured character, you need to do double its total hitpoints plus it's con in non-lethal damage. So, for example, to outright kill a 13 HP Level 1 Fighter with a 14 con, you would have to deal 40 points of damage in a single attack. 13 non-lethal, then it becomes lethal, so another 13 to (EDIT) get them to 0 HPs from lethal damage, then 14 more to get to negative Con. 40 points of damage from a single attack is certainly possible from an 11th level character.
Where it becomes dangerous is if the group decides they can do lethal damage up to a point before switching to non-lethal. If that same fighter were at 1HP from lethal damage, it would only take 28hps of non-lethal from a single attack. 13 non-lethal before it turns lethal, then 15 more to get the character to negative con.
In most cases, though, a character will fall unconscious before being killed by non-lethal damage, because they fall unconscious when the non-lethal damage exceeds their Current HPs. So in the example of the character that is already at 1 HP from lethal damage, 2 HPs of non-lethal would knock him unconscious, leaving 11 more HPs of damage before the non-lethal attack even becomes lethal. One would hope, at that point, that someone trying to do non-lethal damage would stop hitting the unconscious character.
So, it's possible to outright kill someone with non-lethal damage, but it takes either prior lethal damage or an extremely large single attack. Honestly, with a flurry alone, you should be able to stop yourself before killing someone with non-lethal, unless you're doing somewhere around 22-24 damage plus from a single attack, figuring at minimum a level 1 Wizard with a 10 Con at either 6 or 7 HPs depending on favored class. A Sap Master build is more likely to pull off the one-shot non-lethal kill. Now if a Wizard dumped Con and didn't put their favored class bonus into HPs, then shouted a threat at Torch and actually attacked, provoking the guards into attacking, it's probably out of your control if they get one-shot.
To the original post, I think you handled it correctly the first time. There's no reason to TPK a party in that situation, and your response is completely in character for Torch. I've never seen him as the type that would outright kill someone without a reason, and I don't remember him being presented that way in the scenario. If the players had actually asked to attack Torch, then I'd have come in with the warnings about them being clearly overmatched. If they then continued, I'd go to non-lethal from the guards until the group is unconscious, then have them delivered back to the Pathfinder Lodge, likely failing the mission due to the time constraints in that one. Or waking up with the next phase in progress.
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I think the OP did fine with his solution.
But if any GM chose to allow Torch to react violently to the PCs completely missing the point, then I wouldn't even have initiative be rolled.
I'd just narrate what happens, especially since you don't have any stat blocks.
Basically goes like this:
"Ok, Torch orders his guards to attack, and they beat you to within an inch of your life. They turn you over to the city guards. You can choose to spend 5PP for a body recovery, but if you refuse, you will be considered dead as the Pathfinder Society doesn't want to deal with thugs of your ilk."
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Venture-Agent, Florida—Longwood
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It's not the first time I've had people fight something they weren't supposed to fight.
I agree with everyone above in saying that you handled it correctly, although the threatening player would have had to gone through "Stabby."
"Stabby" is what my group calls one of torch's guards, for more information on "Stabby" see the Many Fortunes of Grand Master Torch. (*whispers there isn't much there but that was my group's first meeting with torch*)
Edit: Oh I like that Andrew, although if it is the first adventure it is likely a tpk anyway
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It's not the first time I've had people fight something they weren't supposed to fight.
** spoiler omitted **
I agree with everyone above in saying that you handled it correctly, although the threatening player would have had to gone through "Stabby."
"Stabby" is what my group calls one of torch's guards, for more information on "Stabby" see the Many Fortunes of Grand Master Torch. (*whispers there isn't much there but that was my group's first meeting with torch*)Edit: Oh I like that Andrew, although if it is the first adventure it is likely a tpk anyway
Of course I would make some allowances based on the PFS experience of the players. If its all brand new, its a teaching/learning moment. If they are veterans, no mercy.
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Just remember that non-leathal can still outright kill when you are many levels higher. Played my level 5 monk/barbarian in a 5-6 tier scenario crit an NPC with an flurry(non-lethal) last night and did enough damage to take him to neg con lethally. Basically put my fist through the guy's skull...This is a rule I find is often misunderstood. Not saying this is what happened in your case, but it comes up a lot.
Damage from a non-lethal attack only becomes lethal when the total non-lethal damage exceeds the max hitpoints of a character. It doesn't matter how much lethal damage the character has taken. So, to outright kill an otherwise uninjured character, you need to do double its total hitpoints plus it's con in non-lethal damage. So, for example, to outright kill a 13 HP Level 1 Fighter with a 14 con, you would have to deal 40 points of damage in a single attack. 13 non-lethal, then it becomes lethal, so another 13 to (EDIT) get them to 0 HPs from lethal damage, then 14 more to get to negative Con. 40 points of damage from a single attack is certainly possible from an 11th level character.
Alrighty then, finally somebody showcases that clearly.
See the PRD goes about it like this: If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. I've tried parsing the text before, but, for an EFL speaker, the meaning remained unclear. The braces just broke the sentence apart for me.
To add to that, I kept seeing only that very last section being quoted, entirely dropping the following part that would have made the meaning surprisingly clear: Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. So much better now.
Thanks a lot!
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Everybody's missed this:
Looking back, I realized that I'm just really scared of TPK'ing everyone and having all the players hate me.
While you probably had Torch and his goons react correctly, you can't worry about players hating you if you've killed off their characters.
What's important is that you run the scenario fairly, and that means that players have had a reasonable chance to get out of their situation, unless they've made some significantly stupid decisions (such as intimidating high powered NPCs into combat when they have no real motivation to).
Sometimes that won't be possible, but as long as you're careful about you handle it, that's as far as your concerns should go. At the end of the day, it's a game and you're playing by the rules to the best of your ability.
It's not like you're taking joy in killing them. You want them to win, but not at the cost of giving them a chance to lose.
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Agreed, Avatar.
That's why, if presented with the situation, I would probably just go into dialog mode. Describe how the body guards quickly, and efficiently subdue the PCs.
Then, have them woken up, stripped down to their skivvies, manacled, etc. They wake up to Torch laughing at them. "So quaint. The Pathfinders haven't trained the propensity for resorting to violence first out of their newest agents. Very well, I'll give you a new option...."
Now, granted, I have not played nor run the scenario in question, but I've done plenty with Torch. Having him explain exactly what they should have done, and exactly what aid that he is not going to give them should be a good "teaching point".
Now, I am pretty sure this would be forbidden in PFS play, but maybe not... have Torch hold on to some of the PCs "toys". Maybe it is the fighter's great sword, or the wizards wand of magic missiles. Torch can then tell them that they can earn their toys back if they bring him what he wants.
So, in the end, the characters do not lose anything, but they are now a bit less powerful for the rest of the adventure. I wouldn't take anything that is critical to their characters (take primary weapon when there is a backup, but never take armor, or wands of CLW, etc).
Again, others would have to confirm if this was PFS legal, but I am thinking it walks the tight line very, very closely.
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I would ahad master torch cast a hideous laughter onthe guy. Since he stepped up and was in the tub he oculd drown to death rather quickely. Then I would have had him react the way you did adding to aalert his friends to drag their laughing choiking friend out of the wate rbefore his joke kills him.
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The way you went was fine, and your organisers stance was more than alittle off base. Personally I would have gone with what Drogon said. Have Torch and his guards give them a quick lesson in manners, non-lethal style and toss them onto the street bloodied and dejected. As soon as they realise they can't win every fight they pick, they'll start choosing them much more carefully.
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I would ahad master torch cast a hideous laughter onthe guy. Since he stepped up and was in the tub he oculd drown to death rather quickely. Then I would have had him react the way you did adding to aalert his friends to drag their laughing choiking friend out of the wate rbefore his joke kills him.
rather than hideous laughter Torch might have cast unnatural lust...
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I think the OP did fine with his solution.
But if any GM chose to allow Torch to react violently to the PCs completely missing the point, then I wouldn't even have initiative be rolled.
I'd just narrate what happens, especially since you don't have any stat blocks.
Basically goes like this:
"Ok, Torch orders his guards to attack, and they beat you to within an inch of your life. They turn you over to the city guards. You can choose to spend 5PP for a body recovery, but if you refuse, you will be considered dead as the Pathfinder Society doesn't want to deal with thugs of your ilk."
This, more or less. I wouldnt go so far at that point to make them pay the 5pp. Mine would probably be more like...
'Torch snaps his fingers. His guards spring to action, beating you (the one who drew the weapon) senseless (non-lethal damage) and put you in a hold that winds up with you on your stomach, arms pulled behind you, feet in your back, and kukris at your neck. Torch, speaking to the most charismatic looking PC, says 'I trust the rest of you will keep this fool in line from now on?'
And then let them resume trying to negotiate.
Regardless, what you did was just fine, OP. :)
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rather than hideous laughter Torch might have cast unnatural lust...I would ahad master torch cast a hideous laughter onthe guy. Since he stepped up and was in the tub he oculd drown to death rather quickely. Then I would have had him react the way you did adding to aalert his friends to drag their laughing choiking friend out of the wate rbefore his joke kills him.
Yeah, that woulda been great too.
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rather than hideous laughter Torch might have cast unnatural lust...I would ahad master torch cast a hideous laughter onthe guy. Since he stepped up and was in the tub he oculd drown to death rather quickely. Then I would have had him react the way you did adding to aalert his friends to drag their laughing choiking friend out of the wate rbefore his joke kills him.
Ew.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I am somewhat leary of using GM fiat in this way. (I have done it in past, but I don't do it unless I have no other choice.)
For one, playing out the combat brings home to them that there are things that are legitimately a lot stronger than them, not because the GM says it is, but because it really, really is.
For two, Some of them might get one round in, realize their error and surrender / run like hell. GM fiat takes that option away.
I will note that Mike Brock's stated preference in another thread in the somewhat similar situation of the PCs committing a major crime and then sticking around to brag about it was to send in explicitly statted town guards and play out the combat until ultimately the force of numbers exhausted them, rather than just fiating "Okay, the town guard shows up, you kill a bunch of them but ultimately they wear you down and arrest you."
What you are basically doing is *very* close to advocating a GM fiat TPK, and that will get *very* ugly, very fast (at least out here in our region.)