Or - A case for why some Pathfinder skills are just rank taxes that really need to go.
Who honestly puts more than a few ranks in skills like climb or swim? Especially in a game system where both are irrelevant after level 5 (or earlier)!
What Rogue doesn't resent that their 8 skills ranks (which is suppose to be their class defining feature!) must be split amongst incredibly similar yet separate skills like Sleight of Hand and Disable Device?
Or how about all those crafting skills which are so similar?
Frankly, if there was one thing 4e did VERY well, it was cutting down on skill bloat and making ALL class skills feel useful in some way.
Climbing and Swiming aught to be merged into a single skill, with the Jumping mechanics removed from Acrobatics and stuck into this. After all, Dexterity does NOT help with jumping, that's pure muscle strength which governs how much distance you can propel yourself (not to mention, helps make this new skill worthwhile in investing)
Disable Device and Sleight of Hand are also perfectly mergable. Though each is at least attractive enough that nothing more needs to be done here.
Craft Weapons, Craft Armor, Craft Bows? MERGE. Crafting really aught to just be distilled into 3 or 4 categories. (and all those 2 dozen "craft X useless items? They can get filed under 'Misc')
Disguise and Bluff are another pair that can be put together. Disguise is honestly just not appealing enough on its own (although Bluff more than holds its own). And frankly, why shouldn't a good disguise help your bluff and vice versa?
There are also a few relevant knowledge skills. Local and Nobility would be better off as one skill, as would Geography and History. Engineering and Dungeoneering is a bit of a stretch but both are obscure enough (even for Knowledge checks) to benefit being one skill.
also, move convince part of bluff into diplo.
acrobatics is used for many dex related actions though, like maneuvering safely in combat, or over difficult terrain.
also, the craft skills should probably remain partly separated. sure arms and armor could be one thing, but this doesn't make you great at basket weaving.
also, move convince part of bluff into diplo.
I could see an argument for that, Dip is kind of barren since it only does one thing.
acrobatics is used for many dex related actions though, like maneuvering safely in combat, or over difficult terrain.
Yeah no, that's definitely true, but Dex doesn't help with jumping. Acrobatics is already good enough just doing what it does. It doesn't help that many martial classes do not get Acrobatics so they should be able to invest in Athletics.
also, the craft skills should probably remain partly separated. sure arms and armor could be one thing, but this doesn't make you great at basket weaving.
Like I said, one craft skill called "Misc" where you can dump every non-relevant craft skill like basket weaving, candle making, etc.
also, the craft skills should probably remain partly separated. sure arms and armor could be one thing, but this doesn't make you great at basket weaving.Like I said, one craft skill called "Misc" where you can dump every non-relevant craft skill like basket weaving, candle making, etc.
I think it might be better to use resource genre crafting. like metal, or chemical, or hide... etc. use the primary resource to determine what category an item falls into.
I think it might be better to use resource genre crafting. like metal, or chemical, or hide... etc. use the primary resource to determine what category an item falls into.also, the craft skills should probably remain partly separated. sure arms and armor could be one thing, but this doesn't make you great at basket weaving.Like I said, one craft skill called "Misc" where you can dump every non-relevant craft skill like basket weaving, candle making, etc.
+1 for that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I merged Craft with Profession. Instead of Craft (weapons), you have Profession (weaponsmith). I'd like to do the same with Perform, but that would require changing it from a Charisma-based skill.
I thought 4th Edition condensed the skills way too much. Merging Disguise into Bluff was a smart idea as making Disguises should have been Craft. However, there's a huge difference between Sleight of Hand and Disable Device. Sleight of Hand is a decent skill with many creative uses as long as your campaign isn't nothing but dungeon crawls.
Some skills are worth maxing out. Others aren't. That's not a problem.
Reminds me that in 3.5 there's a feat(?) for convincing people to follow you (per Leadership) if you can make a DC 50 skill check in "a skill of your choice."
There was an entire thread on it for how the villagers respond to watching you perform Activity X. I think it stemmed from "Jumping over a village for followers" thread on how to use a DC 50 jump check to get an entire village to follow you into battle (it was then pointed out that it wouldn't work, as you need to remain within 30 feet of the observers).
(Swim) "Wow, that guy just swam up a waterfall."
(Climb) "That guy just scaled a polished glass wall, I wish I could follow him." (get it? he can't physically follow the guy up the wall?)
(Stealth) "Where'd that guy go? I totally want to have his babies."
If you only need to put a couple of ranks into climb and swim, what's the problem with that? Just raise them until you can comfortably make the DCs and call it a day; spend any further skill points on something else.
Some skills are worth maxing out. Others aren't. That's not a problem.
So what about low skill rank characters? You're just saying they need to suck it up and take the gut punch if they want climb, swim, etc? A lot of the above skills have opposed checks or high DCs to do the more impressive stuff so that's a lot of skill ranks!
|
If you don't dump Strength you can actually get by without ranks in Swim and Climb a lot of the time. If they're class skills and you're a Strength-using class (which goes together a lot), one point in them will probably allow you to succeed with Take 10 in a majority if cases.
Remember that the Climb DC of a knotted rope is 5, and all will be well.
Or get yourself Rite Publishing 101 New Skill Uses and instead of cutting down extraneous skills, rather get a lot more use and versatility out of the existing skills. I think being additive instead of subtractive will get more mileage out of skill use, instead of the opposite.
|
|
I do think some "land redistribution" among the skills might be appropriate, yeah. Split up Perception a bit, maybe into a Surprise score that works like Concentration, and a Search part that works like back when. Something like that.
Meanwhile, Climb is pretty useful at low levels, but Swim is situational. Merging them would be okay.
I'm enthusiastic about higher-ranked skill uses, but it's something I still have to get around to codifying.
This one has always been annoying to me,
Spellcraft and Knowledge Arcana.
One is basically used for identifying spell effects, and the other is basically used for identifying ... other similar spell effects in slightly different situations.
Then add Knowledge Religion to the mix.
For some reason, K: Arcana covers identifying both Arcane and Divine spell effects. A Cleric with maxed out ranks in both Spellcraft and Knowledge Religion is basically helpless for identifying the effects of, say, a Consecrate or Desecrate spell that was cast 10 minutes ago by another Cleric.
I honestly think Perception should be an innate skill, like Initiative.
Or get yourself Rite Publishing 101 New Skill Uses and instead of cutting down extraneous skills, rather get a lot more use and versatility out of the existing skills. I think being additive instead of subtractive will get more mileage out of skill use, instead of the opposite.
Irrelevant. Sure that's good for home games where you can convince your DM to allow 3PP material but I'm speaking on the whole for anyone using the Pathfinder system. Besides PFS play there's always the DMs that reject 3PP content automatically.
Also, I've looked at that book. My reaction to most of it? "Meh."
If you don't dump Strength you can actually get by without ranks in Swim and Climb a lot of the time. If they're class skills and you're a Strength-using class (which goes together a lot), one point in them will probably allow you to succeed with Take 10 in a majority if cases.Remember that the Climb DC of a knotted rope is 5, and all will be well.
And the DC beyond anything more than a rock face WITH handholds is over 20. So if you want to be a good climber, you'll need to invest more than a few ranks (with the knowledge that there are SO MANY spells that make climb irrelevant, Fly much?) That's why climb desperately needs more content.
Irrelevant. Sure that's good for home games where you can convince your DM to allow 3PP material but I'm speaking on the whole for anyone using the Pathfinder system. Besides PFS play there's always the DMs that reject 3PP content automatically.
If this thread was in the Advice or PFS Forum, I'd not have responded, but this is the Suggestion/House Rules/Home-Brew forum - so suggesting 3PP material is definitely in the realm of possibility. It shouldn't be considered out of bounds. Perhaps you'd have been better posting this in another forum category.
Many 3PP are freelance designers for Paizo as well. I'm not a publisher, I'm just a freelancer, so that posted product for Skills is not mine, just a suggestion.
I just think having skills separated limits high skill characters more than low skill characters, which is a problem if you want to be all around useful.
I'm not sure that I agree that too much consolidation is in order. In fact, that would work opposite of what I feel is at issue with skills. To me, if you consolidate too much, you grant more bang for the buck for the ranks available. And right now, there are too many skill points going around for some classes and monster types, not enough for others, and just not enough skills to spread them out amongst for the former, to present any meaningful challenge to them.
A rogue or bard or outsider runs out of places to put their skill points too quickly, and thus is going to pretty much succeed every single time they roll the dice for a check. A fighter is going to fail at everything except his class skills, which, again, he is going to succeed in every single time he rolls the dice.
Too many points, DCs all too low. That's my complaint.
Irrelevant. Sure that's good for home games where you can convince your DM to allow 3PP material but I'm speaking on the whole for anyone using the Pathfinder system. Besides PFS play there's always the DMs that reject 3PP content automatically.If this thread was in the Advice or PFS Forum, I'd not have responded, but this is the Suggestion/House Rules/Home-Brew forum - so suggesting 3PP material is definitely in the realm of possibility. It shouldn't be considered out of bounds. Perhaps you'd have been better posting this in another forum category.
I'm not here making suggestions for 3PP content, I'm here making suggestions for the CRB. I'm not sure why a thread like this would belong in advice or PFS.
Do I really think Paizo is going to reprint the CRB? No. But 2nd edition Pathfinder is going to come eventually and I would like to see changes to skills there.
I'm not sure that I agree that too much consolidation is in order. In fact, that would work opposite of what I feel is at issue with skills. To me, if you consolidate too much, you grant more bang for the buck for the ranks available. And right now, there are too many skill points going around for some classes and monster types, not enough for others, and just not enough skills to spread them out amongst for the former, to present any meaningful challenge to them.
A rogue or bard or outsider runs out of places to put their skill points too quickly, and thus is going to pretty much succeed every single time they roll the dice for a check. A fighter is going to fail at everything except his class skills, which, again, he is going to succeed in every single time he rolls the dice.
Too many points, DCs all too low. That's my complaint.
I disagree about classes having too much skill points. Look at the Rogue, yes he might have more skill points, but he also has more mandatory skills that are requisite to make him function. Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Perception, and Stealth are all essential Rogue skills that are rolled against non-fixed DCs; that's 5 of 8 skill ranks per level that are always going into fixed skills, and if you want to be a "Social Rogue" you can add Bluff/Sense Motive in too. At that point, a Rogue is looking at many compromises if he wants to branch out into his other skills like Diplomacy, Intimidate, Disguise, Sleight of Hand, UMD, or even his Knowledge checks.
Compare that to the Fighter, who, even though he gets 2 skill points a level, he doesn't need to use as many skills, if at all, to function properly, since he's not expected to Scout, Spot, Disable Traps, use Escape Artist in place of CMB, Know anything, etc. Which means that high skill classes are forced to pick up the weight of low skill classes. That's not to say I don't agree that he is also shafted in the Skill department though.
If skill ranks per class were raised to 4 per level, and we had some amount of consolidation, then people could afford to branch out on skills - or god forbid, put points into non-class skills. Meanwhile Rogue would not be feeling the huge pressure of so many skills demanding his attention.
|
|
And the DC beyond anything more than a rock face WITH handholds is over 20. So if you want to be a good climber, you'll need to invest more than a few ranks (with the knowledge that there are SO MANY spells that make climb irrelevant, Fly much?) That's why climb desperately needs more content.
If you don't dump Strength you can actually get by without ranks in Swim and Climb a lot of the time. If they're class skills and you're a Strength-using class (which goes together a lot), one point in them will probably allow you to succeed with Take 10 in a majority if cases.Remember that the Climb DC of a knotted rope is 5, and all will be well.
That's when you start using grappling hooks. Or when one party member with a good climb skill goes on ahead, attaches the knotted rope, and the rest follows.
Theoretically climbing may be really hard, but in practice I've found that it's fairly doable.
I'm not here making suggestions for 3PP content, I'm here making suggestions for the CRB. I'm not sure why a thread like this would belong in advice or PFS.
I'm not asking suggestions for 3PP content. I am suggestinging to you a possible solution for your issues with 3PP as the source.
I don't think this is the forum for "suggestions for the CRB" rather, what "suggestions can you offer for my home game." Again, I think this thread is in the wrong forum, perhaps better fitting the Pathfinder General Discussion
Do I really think Paizo is going to reprint the CRB? No. But 2nd edition Pathfinder is going to come eventually and I would like to see changes to skills there.
Do you mean a reprint of the CRB with erratta and major skill changes, etc in that reprint? I agree Paizo won't do that. I don't expect, nor hope to expect to see a Pathfinder 2.0 for another 5 years, at least. I'm in no hurry for an edition upgrade.
Regarding what skills each skill "should" take depends entirely on where most of the adventuring takes place. For example in mostly wilderness settings, skills like Climb and Swim are very useful, though less useful in urban settings. In my games for example, there are almost no traps used, so ranks in disable device are almost unnecessary. If I were building a rogue, I would need to decide whether I was building an adventuring rogue or a social front man rogue, as I don't see this as one concept, but two. A social rogue wouldn't waste ranks on Acrobatics, Climb, and Disable Device, rather focus only on Bluff, Diplomacy and Disguise.
I think what kinds of things you need to craft also depend on the class and setting. For example, for my published setting, there is a tattooist wizard who requires Craft (tattoo) and has no needs for other kinds of crafting. As a 3PP designer, I look to skills to provide the necessary background skillset for a new or alternate class build.
I wouldn't want to consolidate much of the Knowledge skill variations, as I think each Knowledge variation is extremely powerful, and consolidation would be too much power in a single skill.
I always put ranks into Swim, no matter what character I am making. Can't get over bad experience from 1st ever game of 3rd Ed when 3 characters died from drowning. In the first hour of play.
Ditto. The same for always putting a rank into Ride, because even if you can afford a horse, the GM will not let you ride it without a skill point. Even if you pay extra for the gentlest, oldest mare in the stable, and tie a rope from your saddle to the next person's horse in the group.
You get the old-fashioned GM who insists on a Jump skill check to climb a rope, or a Use Rope skill check to tie up a prisoner, and you spend half an hour at the table convincing them that those skills are covered by Acrobatics and a raw DEX check in Pathfinder. Apparently young boys and girls in a fantasy setting never played with rope or climbing stuff as children.
Then there's the GM who insists upon Craft: Cooking for anything beyond nuts, berries, and burned squirrel at the campfire dinner. You're just trying to make sure your character doesn't turn into a mountain hermit eating pine bark and grass, and your GM insists upon a skill you've never read in the CRB and enough cooking equipment to warrant a horse-driven cart. It's a Survival check now, idiot! Unless the person is so Aristocrat and city-born they have no idea how to cook something.
If you have a character with more than a Fighter's INT + 2 skill ranks per level, it's like being the party cleric: you're almost demanded to spread those skill points far and wide to counter any GM's skill check for any situation. All those Knowledge skills, from Local to The Planes. Disable Device. Perception. Sense Motive. Use Magic Device. Appraise. Forget the fact that not every skill uses the same ability, so a high-INT character might have 10 skill ranks per level, but they are forced to put those ranks into their "dump stat" skills that use CHA or WIS, and end up with only a +1 instead of a +9 to their dice roll. So your "smart" character ends up looking like the nerd or bookworm forced to adventure with the rest of the team.
So I say keep the current skills as they are. You're never going to get around a GM who wants you to have the Knowledge: Really Ancient Nonhumanoid Races skill for the skill check. You're just going to have to buff up Linguistics, Knowledge: History, and Knowledge: The Planes to make multiple DC 25 rolls. If it takes you as a player until Level 13 to get enough skill ranks in a single skill to meet the GM's requirement, then that's just the GM, not the player or the game. What we need are better explanations and ways to get around the GM by using a 2.0 Core Rulebook.