One of the Witch patrons (water) adds Bless Water to your familiar. The false focus feat lets you substitute a divine focus for material components. If I understand this right I can use a silver holy symbol to churn out all the holy waters my spell slots can fuel.
Do I understand this correctly? If so, how many could I have at once, and could I sell them?
At least I've figured out where the greedier good-ish temples get their holy water from.
100% rules legal, 110% silliness.
When it's added from a Witche's Patron, it's Arcane, just like a Fire Domain fireball is divine. That's how I'd rule it anyway.
Drat, ninja'd.
I simultaneously wish this did work and didn't. On the one hand, having dozens of holy waters to hand around for a party to use when undead and fiends are around is awesome. On the other hand, it's cheesy as hell!
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There are cheesier things that a Witch can do with the right resources.
Blood Money+Raise Dead 11 Strength damage for a raise dead that has no gold cost, and considering that Lesser Restoration, Restoration, and Greater Restoration are all on the Healing Patron list a Healing Patron Witch could even remove negative levels and ability drain for no charge.
I can think of few cheesier things than a sideways 8 next to the word 'holy water' on a level 2 character
Well, a level 2 can only make 3-4 free holy water per off day...
Isn't there a new feat or spell that allows you to stack holy water together to increase its damage?
Was it inner sea combat? Or Alchemy Manual?
Undead Slayer's Handbook
And it's a feat. Holy Water Assault
It's actually kind of nice, as there are several abilities you can do with Holy Water with this feat as long as your character has the required prerequisites for each of the abilities (along with the original feat prerequisites).
Like the ability to do more damage is Concentrate Holy Water and requires Craft:Alchemy of 4 ranks. Which isn't all that unreasonable or difficult to achieve.
Keep in mind that creating holy water in this way only lasts for the scenario as the effect will not carry over from scenario to scenario.
Is that a rule written somewhere for PFS? Limited duration on combined items usually are specified in each item/ability, like combining alchemical items using a Hybridization Funnel specifies it lasts for 1 day.
There is no such descriptor under this feat, however.
Keep in mind that creating holy water in this way only lasts for the scenario as the effect will not carry over from scenario to scenario.Is that a rule written somewhere for PFS? Limited duration on combined items usually are specified in each item/ability, like combining alchemical items using a Hybridization Funnel specifies it lasts for 1 day.
There is no such descriptor under this feat, however.
Yes, it's in the Guide. There are only a handful of spells that carry over their effects from one scenario to the next. Bless Water is not one of them.
EDIT:
All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with
the following exceptions:
• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage, repair damage, or remove
harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the
scenario.
• Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
a scenario remain until healed and carry over from
scenario to scenario (except in specific instances as
noted on Page 22).
• A character may have one each of the following spells that
carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.
Ok, thanks.
That’s a shame.
Not so much that I want infinite Holy Water, I just thought that once the Holy Water was created, it stayed with you (until used).
And the weapon wouldn’t do me a lot of good as I’m an Alchemist and the “maximum 10’ range increment” would really be a hinderance. Besides, a bit pricey for me.
But thanks anyways.
Edit: Nevermind, I’m guessing your post was directed to the OP.
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Keep in mind that creating holy water in this way only lasts for the scenario as the effect will not carry over from scenario to scenario.Is that a rule written somewhere for PFS? Limited duration on combined items usually are specified in each item/ability, like combining alchemical items using a Hybridization Funnel specifies it lasts for 1 day.
There is no such descriptor under this feat, however.
Yes, it's in the Guide. There are only a handful of spells that carry over their effects from one scenario to the next. Bless Water is not one of them.
EDIT:
All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with
the following exceptions:
• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage, repair damage, or remove
harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the
scenario.
• Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
a scenario remain until healed and carry over from
scenario to scenario (except in specific instances as
noted on Page 22).
• A character may have one each of the following spells that
carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.
Well hell, every magic item is created using some form of spell... so if that is true, then by the letter of the law your magic items should expire the scenario after they are purchased. :) I dont see how holy water created via a spell differs from say a belt of giant strength.
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Because there is incredibly limited crafting in PFS. Magic items are purchased from NPCs, while a bless water spell is cast by the character. If you purchase holy water from the store, you can keep as much as you want from scenario to scenario.
But if you cast the spell, the effect ends at the end if the scenario.
Keep in mind that creating holy water in this way only lasts for the scenario as the effect will not carry over from scenario to scenario.Is that a rule written somewhere for PFS? Limited duration on combined items usually are specified in each item/ability, like combining alchemical items using a Hybridization Funnel specifies it lasts for 1 day.
There is no such descriptor under this feat, however.
Yes, it's in the Guide. There are only a handful of spells that carry over their effects from one scenario to the next. Bless Water is not one of them.
EDIT:
All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with
the following exceptions:
• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage, repair damage, or remove
harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the
scenario.
• Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
a scenario remain until healed and carry over from
scenario to scenario (except in specific instances as
noted on Page 22).
• A character may have one each of the following spells that
carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.Well hell, every magic item is created using some form of spell... so if that is true, then by the letter of the law your magic items should expire the scenario after they are purchased. :) I dont see how holy water created via a spell differs from say a belt of giant strength.
One is the direct result of a cast spell.
The other is the result of crafting, and doesn't even need any spells to be cast to create.
Because there is incredibly limited crafting in PFS. Magic items are purchased from NPCs, while a bless water spell is cast by the character. If you purchase holy water from the store, you can keep as much as you want from scenario to scenario.
But if you cast the spell, the effect ends at the end if the scenario.
Oh, so if you bought flasks of holy water they last from scenario to scenario?
With the Concentrate Holy Water ability (feat), you aren’t casting any additional Bless Water spells, you are just combining existing flasks of holy water (that you purchased between/during scenarios), so the concentrated flasks should then remain as well.
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The rule makes NO distinction between a spell cast by an NPC and a PC when determining whether or not it carries over past the scenario (so then your purchased holy waters expire at the end of the scenario too).
Plus bless water has an instantaneous duration which I would think does not apply to the rule.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Well hell, every magic item is created using some form of spell... so if that is true, then by the letter of the law your magic items should expire the scenario after they are purchased. :) I dont see how holy water created via a spell differs from say a belt of giant strength.
A magic item is not the result of someone casting a spell, so the rule about spells expiring is irrelevant.
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The rule makes NO distinction between a spell cast by an NPC and a PC when determining whether or not it carries over past the scenario (so then your purchased holy waters expire at the end of the scenario too).
Plus bless water has an instantaneous duration which I would think does not apply to the rule.
Reread the rule. Its any effect. Not just permanent effects.
Secondly, the purchased holy waters are not going to go back to water between scenarios.
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Because there is incredibly limited crafting in PFS. Magic items are purchased from NPCs, while a bless water spell is cast by the character. If you purchase holy water from the store, you can keep as much as you want from scenario to scenario.
But if you cast the spell, the effect ends at the end if the scenario.
Oh, so if you bought flasks of holy water they last from scenario to scenario?
With the Concentrate Holy Water ability (feat), you aren’t casting any additional Bless Water spells, you are just combining existing flasks of holy water (that you purchased between/during scenarios), so the concentrated flasks should then remain as well.
I would say no. Its an effect. The holy eaters would revert to normal holy waters between scenarios.
I would say no. Its an effect. The holy eaters would revert to normal holy waters between scenarios.Because there is incredibly limited crafting in PFS. Magic items are purchased from NPCs, while a bless water spell is cast by the character. If you purchase holy water from the store, you can keep as much as you want from scenario to scenario.
But if you cast the spell, the effect ends at the end if the scenario.
Oh, so if you bought flasks of holy water they last from scenario to scenario?
With the Concentrate Holy Water ability (feat), you aren’t casting any additional Bless Water spells, you are just combining existing flasks of holy water (that you purchased between/during scenarios), so the concentrated flasks should then remain as well.
Well, that would be your call at your table. But if bought holy waters are safe from scenario to scenario, the rules support that concentrated would be safe as well. There are no more additional spells that are being cast, it is just combining flasks through crafting (Alchemy) involved now.
Yes, I saw that originally.
If the feat stated this was considered an ‘effect’, I would agree with you. But since you are crafting the concentrated vial, I would consider it as a permanent item, not one with a temporary effect attached to it.
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The rule makes NO distinction between a spell cast by an NPC and a PC when determining whether or not it carries over past the scenario (so then your purchased holy waters expire at the end of the scenario too).
Plus bless water has an instantaneous duration which I would think does not apply to the rule.
Reread the rule. Its any effect. Not just permanent effects.
Secondly, the purchased holy waters are not going to go back to water between scenarios.
I did reread it and thanks for the clarification. Still, I see no justification for claiming that an NPC casting of bless water persists past the end of the scenario as the rule is written.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If the feat stated this was considered an ‘effect’, I would agree with you.
"Effect" in the Guide is being used in its plain-English meaning, not as some sort of tag that must be included verbatim in a rules element in order for it to be included.
But since you are crafting the concentrated vial, I would consider it as a permanent item, not one with a temporary effect attached to it.
The Guide says "effects", not "temporary effects". The distinction you make here is irrelevant.
I understand what the guide says about ‘effect’, but what I am I saying is I don’t consider combining (crafting) the holy waters together as an effect. It is just a vial of concentrated holy water now that does ‘x’ damage.
It is a permanent crafted item. It is no more an ‘effect’ as an Alchemist Fire that is crafted. You don’t lose that at the end of every scenario.
Alchemists can use Craft:Alchemy to create alchemical items, which is the craft the concentrated holy water falls under.
Yes, this is what I believe as well.
The DC is 15 + 2 x the number of doses. So if you are combining 2 doses, the DC would be 19.
as a GM, i'd have no problem noting on a chronicle sheet that a character has concentrated the holy waters together, and it is available for use in a future scenario, provided the character used normally purchased holy waters to created the concentrated holy water. if they created them by casting a spell, i'd rule that they lose their potency at the end of a scenario as normal.
i do believe that there was a thread about whether or not weapon blanched ammunition carried over from scenario to scenario in which Mike Brock weighed in that it would as long as it was properly documented on the Chronicle/ITS. in my view, concentrated holy water comprised of legally purchased component holy waters would fall under the same umbrella.
as a GM, i'd have no problem noting on a chronicle sheet that a character has concentrated the holy waters together, and it is available for use in a future scenario, provided the character used normally purchased holy waters to created the concentrated holy water. if they created them by casting a spell, i'd rule that they lose their potency at the end of a scenario as normal.
i do believe that there was a thread about whether or not weapon blanched ammunition carried over from scenario to scenario in which Mike Brock weighed in that it would as long as it was properly documented on the Chronicle/ITS. in my view, concentrated holy water comprised of legally purchased component holy waters would fall under the same umbrella.
I think this is the most straight forward way to handle the situation, while staying within the intent and technicalities given to us by the Guide.
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| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The Guide does not distinguish between spells cast by NPCs and spells cast by PCs. If you pay an NPC to cast masterwork transformation on your longsword and your heavy steel shield, only one of those will remain active after the conclusion of the scenario. Likewise, if you pay an NPC to cast an extended duration spell that isn't mentioned in the Guide for you (such as shrink item), that spell ceases to function at the scenario's conclusion.
Since the only method for creating holy water is, at the moment, the spell bless water, there are two ways to look at this dilemma:
1) Items created by spells not otherwise allowed by the Guide cease to exist after a scenario's conclusion. This would mean that holy water, whether PC-created or NPC-created, disappears if not used in the scenario in which it is purchased or created.
2) Items, being neither effects or spells, are not affected by the relevant page 24 clause. Holy water persists from scenario to scenario, regardless of its origin.
If we value rules consistency, we cannot choose to inconsistently apply the spell persistence rule. If this means that the Guide needs to be updated for season 6, then it's good that we're bringing this to the campaign's attention now.
Sidenote: The campaign's current position on infinite wealth schemes is, by all appearances: don't abuse them, and we won't ban them. Blood money has been allowing for theoretical infinite schemes since its publication, and Mike Brock has chosen to let it remain in the campaign until he hears that PFS isn't mature to handle it. I'd imagine that the combination of bless water and False Focus falls under the same umbrella.
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The Guide does not distinguish between spells cast by NPCs and spells cast by PCs. If you pay an NPC to cast masterwork transformation on your longsword and your heavy steel shield, only one of those will remain active after the conclusion of the scenario. Likewise, if you pay an NPC to cast an extended duration spell that isn't mentioned in the Guide for you (such as shrink item), that spell ceases to function at the scenario's conclusion.
Since the only method for creating holy water is, at the moment, the spell bless water, there are two ways to look at this dilemma:1) Items created by spells not otherwise allowed by the Guide cease to exist after a scenario's conclusion. This would mean that holy water, whether PC-created or NPC-created, disappears if not used in the scenario in which it is purchased or created.
2) Items, being neither effects or spells, are not affected by the relevant page 24 clause. Holy water persists from scenario to scenario, regardless of its origin.If we value rules consistency, we cannot choose to inconsistently apply the spell persistence rule. If this means that the Guide needs to be updated for season 6, then it's good that we're bringing this to the campaign's attention now.
Sidenote: The campaign's current position on infinite wealth schemes is, by all appearances: don't abuse them, and we won't ban them. Blood money has been allowing for theoretical infinite schemes since its publication, and Mike Brock has chosen to let it remain in the campaign until he hears that PFS isn't mature to handle it. I'd imagine that the combination of bless water and False Focus falls under the same umbrella.
Thank you. I'm going to FAQ that post.
It is a feat out of the Undead Slayers Handbook. The actual feat is called Holy Water Assault, and it allows you to do several abilities in making the use of holy water more effective. Each ability has it’s own prerequisite(s), though, on top of the original prereq of the feat.
The specific ability we have been discussing is “Concentrate Holy Water”. It’s personal prereq is 4 ranks in Craft Alchemy.
One of the Witch patrons (water) adds Bless Water to your familiar. The false focus feat lets you substitute a divine focus for material components. If I understand this right I can use a silver holy symbol to churn out all the holy waters my spell slots can fuel.
Do I understand this correctly? If so, how many could I have at once, and could I sell them?
The game has quite a few "bugs" in it. Most GM's will not let you take advantage of them because that was not the intent, but to answer your question that really depends on the GM, and your carrying capacity.
ah! so it's not an Alchemist thing.then I'm not sure if it would carry over to another scenario... it's kind of close to the Crafting rules. This looks like a grey area, so you are likely to encounter YMMV...
(IMHO)While a non-alchemist could craft alchemical items in a scenario, they would not carry past the end of the scenario. For example; if I had a Wizard with Craft Alchemy (my wife actually has one), and during the scenario we had a months travel time by ship, it would be possible to craft some items... spending the 1/3 cost, but at the end of the scenario, the items would be gone... (perhaps "sold" as part of a "day-job" roll).
Yes, I see your point.
I guess I was looking at it from the Alchemist’s perspective. But with the exception of the Poisoner Rogue (only with poisons) and of course the Alchemist, I didn’t think any other class could use Craft Alchemy. Even if the item was only good for that current scenario.
But with Alchemists, the items stay with you (when crafted), so that is why I believe the concentrated holy water would as well.
Humorously, it could explain how, say, the Razmirans could provide holy water without divine casters (and still turn a profit)