Passing through an ally's square while they're fighting a tiny creature

[Tiberius777]

I had a situation in a game the other night:
The barbarian was fighting a Augur, Kyton (tiny creature - sharing the same square) on a 5ft stairwell and another party member wanted to pass through his square.

I ruled on the fly, that they could pass through the barbarian's square but the Aurgur, Kyton would get and attack of opportunity.

What is the ruling on that kind of situation so I know in the future?

[RainyDayNinja]

That sounds right. The size rules let you share a square, so you should be able to pass through, and you're leaving the square that the creature threatens, so that provokes.

[SlimGauge]

I'm not so sure. The rules say "A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.". However, Tiny is only two size categories smaller than Medium.

I'd rule that this other party member must perform a bull-rush (if he wants to move the Augur or Kyton (or both) out of the barbarian's square or an overrun (if he just wants to get to the other side).

Either way, he's pretty likely to succeed unless he's a feeble casty type.

[Tiberius777]

...and more than likely the Augur,Kyton will get an AoO, depending on if they have the improved bull-rush feat.

That's a nice look at that to, SlimGauge, thx!.. You too, RainyDayNinja

[anthonydido]

I agree with RainyDayNinja.

The reason you can't normally move through an enemies square (barring acrobatics) is because they take up the entire square as they are moving and fighting so it requires some dexterity. However, a tiny creature only takes up a small portion of the 5' square and is allowed to share the square with larger creatures.

[Ravingdork]

If there is a difference in size of three steps or more, creatures can move through each others spaces, though this generally provokes (possibly twice, once for entering an occupied square, and another for leaving a threatened space).

However, that does not appear to be the case here.

[thorin001]

No AOO for tiny critters as they do not have the reach to threaten.

Ravingdork, where is the rule for provoking for entering a creature's square as a separate instance from leaving a threatened square? I recall that there was such a rule, but have been unable to find it recently.

[Rikkan]

thorin001 wrote:

No AOO for tiny critters as they do not have the reach to threaten.

Ravingdork, where is the rule for provoking for entering a creature's square as a separate instance from leaving a threatened square? I recall that there was such a rule, but have been unable to find it recently.

Does this help:

Quote:

Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than itself.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is. Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.

[Ravingdork]

thorin001 wrote:

No AOO for tiny critters as they do not have the reach to threaten.

Ravingdork, where is the rule for provoking for entering a creature's square as a separate instance from leaving a threatened square? I recall that there was such a rule, but have been unable to find it recently.

First, one rule says you provoke for ENTERING an enemy-occupied space.

Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.

...

[Tiny and smaller creatures] must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.

Second, the other rule says you provoke for LEAVING an enemy's threatened square.

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

There is literally no way for those two rules to be confused with one another as the verbiage is nothing alike.

Also, there's this:

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

Note the portion of text I've bolded for emphasis. It clearly states that you can't make more than one attack of opportunity for someone moving out a threatened square, referencing only rule #2 above and not rule #1.

Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that recklessly approaching and entering the space of a creature with Combat Reflexes (or similar ability) would provoke twice. There is no overlap or blending, merely two separate, distinct rules in action.

I hope that helps. :)

[anthonydido]

Bit of a thread hijack at this point but:

Creatures don't provoke when moving into the squares of larger creatures because they are moving INTO the square. They provoke because they are leaving a threatened square (the adjacent square). The wording is such because nearly every creature small and bigger threatens the 5' radius around them.

[thorin001]

Ravingdork wrote:

thorin001 wrote:

No AOO for tiny critters as they do not have the reach to threaten.

Ravingdork, where is the rule for provoking for entering a creature's square as a separate instance from leaving a threatened square? I recall that there was such a rule, but have been unable to find it recently.

First, one rule says you provoke for ENTERING an enemy-occupied space.

Creatures moving through squares occupied by other creatures provoke attacks of opportunity from those creatures.

...

[Tiny and smaller creatures] must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.

Second, the other rule says you provoke for LEAVING an enemy's threatened square.

Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

There is literally no way for those two rules to be confused with one another as the verbiage is nothing alike.

Also, there's this:

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks...

Thanks. I knew it was there I was just looking in the wrong places.

[Rogar Stonebow]

If there is a lot of combat with both tiny and larger creatures i have a seperate scaled generic map representing the fight from the tiny size point of view. Since a tiny sized creature takes up 2.5 feet. A square made up of four of them make a 5 ft square. I use a medium sized minature to represent the tiny creatue. And a large miniature to represent the medium. this helps to visualize how the tiny character threatens the 5 ft square it is in.

[Ravingdork]

anthonydido wrote:

Bit of a thread hijack at this point but:

Creatures don't provoke when moving into the squares of larger creatures because they are moving INTO the square. They provoke because they are leaving a threatened square (the adjacent square). The wording is such because nearly every creature small and bigger threatens the 5' radius around them.

Any creature absolutely does provoke for ENTERING a hostile creature's combat space.

It's not for leaving the threatened squares, as you say. The wording just doesn't add up to that conclusion.

Also, there would be absolutely no need for them to clarify that "You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally." if you only ever got to attack them as they left your threatened square.

No, they are two separate, distinct rules that operate independently of one another.

Rogar Stonebow wrote:

If there is a lot of combat with both tiny and larger creatures i have a seperate scaled generic map representing the fight from the tiny size point of view. Since a tiny sized creature takes up 2.5 feet. A square made up of four of them make a 5 ft square. I use a medium sized minature to represent the tiny creatue. And a large miniature to represent the medium. this helps to visualize how the tiny character threatens the 5 ft square it is in.

That sounds like an interesting and fun house rule. :D

[anthonydido]

Hmm. I reread that paragraph a few times and I see the error in my translation. It seems like it's akin to provoking from a bull rush or overrun. I stand corrected. Good to know though.