Questions about Incorporeals

[Drakim]

Incorporeal (Ex):

An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.

An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).

An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.

An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.

From what I can read of this description:

• Incorporeals are immune to non-magical damage, and have 50% reduction from magic damage/effects, but there are some things that do full damage.

• Incorporeals does not get natural armor bonus, but gets a deflection bonus based on Charisma instead.

• Incorporeals can enter through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, so it cannot keep going deeper into a wall for instance

• Incorporeals' attack ignore armor from physical sources such as shields, but not magical things like deflection. Also immune to falling damage, and cannot grapple or be grappled. Cannot physically manipulate enemy or enemy equipment

• Incorporeals cannot be heard, has no strength score, difficult to see, and can move at full speed even when blind.
  

So, here are my questions:

• Can incorporeals use items and magical items? Nothing in this description suggests that they cannot (for while enemies struggle hurting them, incorporeals have no difficulty striking back at the physical realm in full force). However, the Ghost Touch special quality for magic weapons specifies that incorporeals **can** use them, which implies that they cannot use them without the Ghost Touch special ability. What's the deal? What about non-weapon magic items?

• What happens to incorporeals when they die? If something which is normally physical becomes incorporeal, and then dies in this state, does it leave an incorporeals body, or does it just dim out of existence, or does it return to it's physical state as a dead body?
  

My DM is considering allowing me to use some third party content, where one of the options is to have your Familiar be incorporeal, so I need to figure out how this would change things (it would be annoying if I couldn't resurrect it because it leaves no body, etc)

[wraithstrike]

Incorporeal creatures can NOT manipulate physical objects so they can't use anything that is not ghost touch.

You can be incoporeal without being undead. It just so happens that many incorporeals are undead, and the physical body of a person does not always become incorporeal. It depends on the situation. As an example if you die and become a ghost your physical body still exist. If you die and become a shadow or wraith, then it seems like your physical body actually changes, but in either case your soul moves on to the after life. For that to not happen there would need to be specific rules saying it did not happen.

If your familiar becomes incorporeal and dies then it is a GM call. If it is an outside it might return to its home plane assuming you take improved familiar, but in that case the body is still not available to you. If I were the GM I would allow the body to stay around for ease of play.

3rd party supplements often cause situations that result in "ask your GM" because they create situations that the designers of Pathfinder did not think of.

[Rikkan]

Well ghosts do have this text:

Quote:

When a ghost is created, it retains incorporeal “copies” of any items that it particularly valued in life (provided the originals are not in another creature's possession). The equipment works normally for the ghost but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures, but any such attack deals only half as much damage (50%) unless it is a ghost touch weapon. A ghost can use shields or armor only if they have the ghost touch quality.

The original items remain behind, just as the ghost's physical remains do. If another creature seizes the original, the incorporeal copy fades away. This loss invariably angers the ghost, who stops at nothing to return the item to its original resting place (and thus regain the item's use).

I'm not sure about the pathfinder rules, but I know in 3.5 incorporeal creatures could hold all kinds of equipment (having a non-ghost touch weapon for example would just give them a 50% miss chance (and pathfinder changed miss chances to half damage)).

But if incorporeal creatures can't have items, I wonder what happens when for example an oracle activates :

Spirit Walk (Su): wrote:

You can become incorporeal and invisible. While in this form, you can move in any direction and pass through solid objects. You can take no action other than to move while in this form. You remain in this form for a number of rounds equal to your oracle level, but you can end this effect prematurely as a standard action. You can use this ability once per day at 11th level, and twice per day at 15th level. You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.

- Edit: Reading the Blink and Create Demiplane spell yields this:

Blink wrote:

An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures.

Create Demiplane, Lesser wrote:

Components V, S, F (a forked metal rod worth at least 500 gp)

[ . . . ]
You must be on the Astral or Ethereal Plane or on a plane that has access to one of those planes (such as the Material Plane) to cast this spell.

So if you can hold items on the ethereal plane and you're incorporeal while on the ethereal plane, it stands to reason that incorporeal creatures can hold items.

[Orfamay Quest]

wraithstrike wrote:

Incorporeal creatures can NOT manipulate physical objects so they can't use anything that is not ghost touch.

I think this would depend upon the item. I see no reason, for example, that a ghost couldn't read a book, provided that there were someone (including an unseen servant) to turn the pages for her. Since ghosts can speak, they can say command words, and although they couldn't wave wands, they could probably summon elementals via a brazier.

Similarly, a stone of good luck provides it's "possessor" with a bonus. I possess lots of things that I'm not actually carrying around with me at the moment, starting with my coffee cup. I hope you're not claiming that the cup on the desk in front of me isn't really mine; those would be fighting words.

At the other extreme, a ghost would have no more trouble carrying around Baba Yaga's hut than any other human-sized creature would.

I agree one would have to look carefully at any objects on a case-by-case basis. But 90% or more of the magic items aren't even eligible for "ghost touch" (how the hell do you price a ghost touch ring or wondrous item?) but many could still be used by a ghost.

[Orfamay Quest]

Rikkan wrote:

I'm not sure about the pathfinder rules, but I know in 3.5 incorporeal creatures could hold all kinds of equipment (having a non-ghost touch weapon for example would just give them a 50% miss chance (and pathfinder changed miss chances to half damage)).

But if incorporeal creatures can't have items, I wonder what happens when for example an oracle activates :

Spirit Walk (Su): wrote:

You can become incorporeal and invisible. While in this form, you can move in any direction and pass through solid objects. You can take no action other than to move while in this form. You remain in this form for a number of rounds equal to your oracle level, but you can end this effect prematurely as a standard action. You can use this ability once per day at 11th level, and twice per day at 15th level. You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation.

My reading is that ethereal creatures can handle ethereal objects, and when you activate a spell/ability to become ethereal, your equipment does as well.

Note that even with the ability you listed, you can't do anything with your equipment except lug it around -- "you can take no action other than to move."

But, yes, if for some reason you find an ethereal ring, I would rule an ethereal creature could put it on normally.

This said, are ghosts ethereal? Ethereal -> incorporeal, but does incorporeal -> ethereal?

[Rikkan]

Some Ghosts do roam on the ethereal plane.
In a paizo adventure path you also have a ghost using a rod of metamagic
Adventure path:

Spoiler:

kingmaker

Specific book:

Spoiler:

War of the River Kings

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Incorporeal creatures can NOT manipulate physical objects so they can't use anything that is not ghost touch.

I think this would depend upon the item. I see no reason, for example, that a ghost couldn't read a book, provided that there were someone (including an unseen servant) to turn the pages for her. Since ghosts can speak, they can say command words, and although they couldn't wave wands, they could probably summon elementals via a brazier.

Similarly, a stone of good luck provides it's "possessor" with a bonus. I possess lots of things that I'm not actually carrying around with me at the moment, starting with my coffee cup. I hope you're not claiming that the cup on the desk in front of me isn't really mine; those would be fighting words.

At the other extreme, a ghost would have no more trouble carrying around Baba Yaga's hut than any other human-sized creature would.

I agree one would have to look carefully at any objects on a case-by-case basis. But 90% or more of the magic items aren't even eligible for "ghost touch" (how the hell do you price a ghost touch ring or wondrous item?) but many could still be used by a ghost.

Incorporeals have a strength score of 0. If they could even touch an item they are incapable of lifting, moving or manipulating anything.

Your argument is invalid.

[DJ_Dust]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Incorporeal creatures can NOT manipulate physical objects so they can't use anything that is not ghost touch.

I think this would depend upon the item. I see no reason, for example, that a ghost couldn't read a book, provided that there were someone (including an unseen servant) to turn the pages for her. Since ghosts can speak, they can say command words, and although they couldn't wave wands, they could probably summon elementals via a brazier.

Similarly, a stone of good luck provides it's "possessor" with a bonus. I possess lots of things that I'm not actually carrying around with me at the moment, starting with my coffee cup. I hope you're not claiming that the cup on the desk in front of me isn't really mine; those would be fighting words.

At the other extreme, a ghost would have no more trouble carrying around Baba Yaga's hut than any other human-sized creature would.

I agree one would have to look carefully at any objects on a case-by-case basis. But 90% or more of the magic items aren't even eligible for "ghost touch" (how the hell do you price a ghost touch ring or wondrous item?) but many could still be used by a ghost.

Incorporeals have a strength score of 0. If they could even touch an item they are incapable of lifting, moving or manipulating anything.

Your argument is invalid.

That is not entirely true. If you read ghost touch, it directly says that a manifesting ghost can wield it against corporeal creatures and the universal monster rules state that they use their Dexterity score in place of their Strength for melee attacks, meaning that they do possess the strength to manipulate objects WITHOUT the use of magical means, mage hand for example, AND without a strength score. You should read the rules more thoroughly before stating that one's "argument is invalid."

With Paizo needing to deal with these sort of questions, they are CONSTANTLY changing the rules. This leads to loop holes and all sorts of squirrelly nonsense and people not willing to read the rules more thoroughly wrong. Please read the Beastiary, effects that deal specifically with the item/creature/effect in question, then finally the thing in question.

Now, as for non-undead incorporeal creatures in Pathfinder specifically, there's no restrictions for resurrection on them other than if the 50% chance of non-damaging spells (for being incorporeal) not having an effect screws you over, you might end up having to put A LOT of money into that, which doesn't matter if they turn corporeal after death (as though through a spell-like effect). If it's just a familiar though, why not go through the process of just getting another familiar?

As for items, unfortunately, unless you can convert the item into an incorporeal form (ie spells converting a character into incorporeal form thus changing their equipment incorporeal as well) or enchant them with ghost touch, not much you can do. Now, if you did the stuff with the spells, most will revert any equipment you drop back to physical form.

[DJ_Dust]

Additionally, incorporeal creatures DO NOT have a strength score of 0, they simply do not have one. By your logic, Constructs would have a constitution of 0, simply because they don't have one. There is a reason that incorporeals do not get bonuses or negs for their attacks: They have no bonuses or negs to deal with because the lack of a score.